Paladin

her hair strands need a lot more contrast/definition, perhaps play with brightness/contrast/sharpening on it

HER right hand looks really bent out of wack uncomfortable.

her shield straps that hold on to her arm are going thru her arm instead of going around it.

her head looks like it was maybe pasted on, im not sure. it looks too small to me or something.

*sigh*

Thanks.

You're coming along very well here! Most of what's 'wrong' can be fixed in postwork, as far as the shield and such. I think the illusion of her head being small is the way the neck armor fits on her. My question is, did you recolor her armor in postwork? There's a spot on her chest that looks like it should be flesh toned but isn't. If that is the case I would take off your coloring of that. Also, her armor could use some depth, the color is washing it out a lot. Make a copy of the layer and drop it over the base, remove all her head and hair then play with layer options like multiply or soft light and then the opacity to get the shadows darker and get back some depth. (I think that way is easier than trying to dodge and burn, but it could be done either way.)

I just played around with the color for the armor in PS, learning how to change colors and such.. Think I messed it up when I was trying to cover the spot that I screwed up (that would require going back to DAZ and fixing, and then redoing all hair and other layers in PS, which I didn't want to bother doing since it was just a practice piece).

I really appreciate the positive feedback, Temprah, as well as the negative - I've been getting very discouraged

Don;t be discouraged! Here's another tip.. One little thing I always try to do.. in your face setting, always have the eyes blinking a tiny bit (just go for 0.1) even if you don't want to have them closed more to look sultry or slitted, the standard V3 eyes open aways looks like she's bug eyed.

BTW, I saw this and I was like yay! She found a skin!! and was very happy for you! You're coming along so just stick with it!!!!

Dont take it as negative, you're asking for c/c and we're giving it to you. You gotta be less sensitive about your art, Hijinks. TAC isn't NS and we're not going to fluff a piece. We give constructive, clear criticism and it doesn't matter who you are. For example, I mostly fluff freehand because I honestly dont know how to c/c it.

You are learning a new medium and asking for tips to improve. Never take any c/c here as a negative comment or a slight against you personally because it's NOT. You're posting your art because you want to improve, we're giving you c/c because we want to help you, NOT HURT YOU. I still go over and lurk the 3d stuff on NS - there's nothing but fluff. How is that helpful? Sandwiching c/c always worked for me but if you're looking for constant fluff and praise, you're not going to find it here. We want to help you improve so if you ask for c/c, take it for what it's worth and dont assume we're trying to knit pick you. Your effort is not being ignored.

With that being said: I agree with the above c/c, just wanted to add that your hair is progressing nicely. With the suggestions given, I think you can really define the hair more, but as it is, it's quite impressive. Fixing collisions with other items is difficult, but you'll get the hang of it. I just now figured out how to fit armor to different body shapes. Your effort is paying off, just dont sweat the small stuff.

I *am* taking the negative cc for what it's worth, and I don't consider anything to be a slight against me personally. But here there isn't any fluff, you are certainly right, and I need encouragement along with my c/c *shrug*

What's offered here is straightforward what's-wrong-with-the-piece C/C. I, myself, require encouragement and, yes, occasionally some praise to show me what I'm doing right, not just what I'm doing wrong. For example, in Temprah's offering, she encouraged me by telling me my skills are improving, as well as offering negative C/C - I do need to hear that from time to time, because if I just hear "this sucks, that's bad, fix this, that needs work," and not one word about what's better or improved or good about a piece, then yes, I am going to get discouraged.

I don't mind Temprah's offering in the slightest, even though she offered negative feedback, because she let me know that she does realize I'm still learning and she's offering encouragement. I don't ask that TAC change and offer "fluff" as you call it, I'll just go where I can get more encouragement. I don't hate anyone here, and I don't think anyone's being mean or rude or malicious. I just need more positive and less negative feedback. I do appreciate when more experienced artists remember what it's like to be just beginning.

It's just a matter of my personality and what I need in order to improve. I think that's better offered at NS than here. Not that there's anything wrong with the C/C offered here - it just doesn't fit my personality and my needs to improve my artwork. I've already gotten quite a bit of helpful feedback on the piece at NS - I don't think it's all fluff. And since I am still learning, I don't think it's bad to need some praise now and then. I just don't think it's necessary to want to avoid the fluff so much that you go entirely in the opposite way and never offer any praise or encouragement, either.

I'll still hang out here and offer C/C of my own on other folks' pieces, and I enjoy the open chat and the roleplaying threads. I'll just look for C/C elsewhere.

That's purely up to you and whatever fits your needs, Hijinks.

Not to single anyone out at all (although I suppose simply by posting in this thread it would appear that way), the following comments are just things that i think people could find generally useful. You'll also have to pardon if I may appear too blunt in some regards, but that's how I usually am in real life.

While compliments are a nice way of encouraging a person to go on, it's an external source. A true artist can look within to drive themselves forward. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that an over-reliance on outside compliments can be as crippling to artistic growth as drug abuse is to a person's physical and mental growth. You have to search inside you and find out if you truly want to be artist you could be. It's not going to come overnight and it definitely won't come easy. It takes a hell of a lot of work and it can take its toll on a person both mentally and physically... but it's an attainable goal. Not all works we create can have compliments. Soemtimes, we create things that are so utterly flawed that it's almost impossible to find the positives (we've pretty much all been there). Learn, move on and improve on the next piece.

The internet is a very handy tool. It lets us post work and get instant feedback on what we did right and wrong. But it's not without its weak points. For one, it's MUCH easier to fall into a back-patting clique. Great for confidence, not so great for personal growth. With the internet comes an almost readily available audience that can help us grow at a much faster than in the past. When I was learning my craft, I used to sit at home trying to come up with things and problem solve my techniques. I'd then bring my drawings and get laced into on how things were wrong and all that. But I didn't know what was wrong until I was already done. With the internet, we can show works in progress so that fixes can be made BEFORE things are completed. However, used incorrectly, it can also give us a false view of our own work. The audience can make us think we're better than we really are. Don't believe me? It happens on every board, every site and pretty damn regularly. "WOW! That ROCKS!!" "You're such a pro!" ""Everything you do gives me an art-gasm!" To me none of those are remotely helpful. Does it feel nice? Yeah, I guess... but are you doing it for the accolades? or are you doing it because you REALLY want to learn and improve?

Some of it may sound harsh, but what I'm basically saying is that all artists need to take an introspective look and decide if they really want to fully embrace art. There are an insane amount of negatives that come with it... and too fully grow as an artist we have to embrace all of it, otherwise we'll hit our creative ceilings very early.

Very true Saraquael, your feedback is appreciated However, if I may .. I, personally, am not at the point (and may never get to the point) where my work is good enough for anyone to say "That rocks!" or "You're so great," etc etc. I realize you are at that point and so therefore you probably roll your eyes whenever someone just posts that your work is great, without offering any feedback.

But to someone who's struggling with simple, basic technique, encouragement goes a LONG way.

With this paladin picture, I was hunched over my computer for the better part of yesterday. I worked VERY hard on it. Is it good? Maybe. Is it perfect? By all means, no. But I *did* work hard on it, and I don't want to post it somewhere and have the C/C be formatted negatively. I prefer C/C to be formatted in a positive way, i.e. "I like x and a y about this piece, but a and b could use some work. Since I know you're learning, here's how you could maybe fix a or b....." rather than assuming the OP understands the C/C.

Hence another reason I'll be posting at NS - the C/C is dumbed down more for people like me who just don't understand.

I've been very tempted to give it all up because I felt like there was NOTHING redeemable about my work, because no one ever pointed out the good things about it. I might look at a piece (like with the paladin picture) and say "Hey that's good! I like it!" and then have all of the C/C be negative, without any positivity. That is what is frustrating, and that is what is discouraging to me. I don't think it's "fluff" to say "Hey nice job! I like this and that, but I think there needs to be more shadows here, etc etc." The C/C is still there, but there's also positive reinforcement. Animals learn tricks better using positive reinforcement, rather than negative reinforcement.

I refuse to believe that any artist has become better just because their shit kept getting shot down on forums, without any positive reinforcement. Although I'm sure there are artists out there who are bulletproof and who have never had their feelings hurt because someone on a forum didn't like a piece and gave negative feedback, I think it more likely that when experienced artists started out, they kept at it because they were encouraged to keep at it.

Oh sorry let me add that I think any forum has every right to say they want to be for more experienced artists, and less for the type of newbie artist like me that needs the encouragement, because more experienced artists don't want to waste time coddling newbies. IMO that's perfectly fine, I just didn't realize that this was one of those .. I'm not trying to be snotty! I swear! Just trying to explain why I'm going back to NS for C/C on my work, because it's more for inexperienced learning artists and the folks here know what they're doing.

I guess this misunderstanding stems from the fact that you have asked for c/c 4 on this piece and c/c5 in the past. We c/c with the same guidelines as NS so if you didnt want:

***
Level 4: "Into the fire"
You're comfortable in your style, and you've been doing it for a while, but you've been staring at the same freaking piece of work for six hours and it all looks like a blur to you. You know it's good, and you want hard critiques on what's missing, looks wrong, looks weird. Those giving critiques need to step it up at a Level 4 - no more "it's too dark," more like, "the color contrast between the background and foreground need to be better balanced so that the main focus point of the character stands out." Look at anatomy, foreshortening, color balance (where applicable), shadowing, lighting, effects, the whole enchilada. Specifying Level 4 also means that you want more critique than "It's great!" posts.
***

That's not what you want, but you asked for it. This is what you are talking about:

Level 1: "Be Nice" (Default: Noobie)
Consider this the "intro" level, if you're not sure of the poster's temperament and they have not specified a critiquing level other than "what do you guys think?" This should be the default for most of the new or first time posters unless otherwise specified. Always offer ideas on what could be changed, but err on the side of the positive.

Level 2: "Be Kind" (Default: Regular)
Offer up some advice on what should be changed, but go 70% "what's right," and 30% "what could be better". This should be the default for most of Norrath Studio's "Regular Posters," unless otherwise specified.
***

I'd say, in between 1 and 2. If you choose, in the future, to post your artwork and ask for c/c, please read over the c/c guidelines found here . Otherwise most c/c given is c/c4 - 4.5 as the default.

I picked up poser not too much earlier than you did. Maybe a month or so if that. So I'm a beginner and my preference is c/c 4 - 5 because after doing art for...cripes 3 years now I think, and knowing the people here on the board, I'm comfortable with getting my shit ripped apart. For ME, it helps. For you, I'd recommend c/c level 1.5.

We want to help you progress, but be specific on the type of help you want.

I was going to say...remember your C/C levels to get what you want from a pic. There are people who don't want crits, and some people who want only to show a piece they are done with. C/C 2 or 3 if you want ecouragment along with the crits.

I remember a piece of pixel art that I was totally proud of and thought there could be nothing much wrong with it and I was pretty much done. I asked for C/C 5. I got plenty of comments on things to fix, Neilani is a hard task master if you ask her to be and she sent me back to the drawing board more than once on IM's.

It was a little stunning to have something you thought, This is awesome.. I'm doing great... and people saying..you could fix this and this and oh, don't forget that over there. However, when I went back in fixed all those things I ended up with a much better piece of art that I am much happier with. I'm still reasonably happy with it..though looking back on it I see things about it now that I could change and improve on. I wouldn't be happy with it had I not gone back and fixed the things they saw wrong with it. It would have been a mediocre piece at best but as far as pixel art goes, it is still one of my better ones.

It's been an ongoing thing for me, with multiple pieces posted here, and I've asked for a range from 3 to 5. If I asked for 3, then I wouldn't get many responses. It's not a big deal, the other board is better for me at my level.

Course if I had my way, I'd do away with the c/c levels altogether. I'd turn it into a hardcore art boot campe where most of us would leave the place battered, bruised, bloody and in tears.

But, the people in charge wnt to keep things "civilized" so there goes my fun.

:P

I think the issue is Hijinks that many of us are concerned about you suggesting that we're not giving the kind of c/c that you're looking for when you're not clearly asking for what you want in the way of criticism. I haven't seen one of your pieces where you've asked for lower criticism to be honest. I've always wondered why you would ask for such high level criticism but then get frustrated when you received it. It has made me reluctant to offer any criticism to you. I personally haven't ever critiqued anyone's piece without putting something positive about it and I know for a fact Mae does the same cause sometimes she does it (often on my own work...I've put out some shitty stuff that Mae has been very disappointed in) and I think to myself "she's just adding that in to be nice...she thinks it sucks" and for me, I'd just as soon her only tell me "wow" if she is really honestly thinking "wow" and isn't trying to placate me. But I know her well enough to know what of her c/c is personal opinion, and also that she isn't meaning to be rough with me but just honest. With Vex I find she often doesn't say anything unless it really stands out to her that it needs to be fixed...I appreciate that cause I'm sometimes the same way and if something stands out like a sore thumb, I want to know about it.

I know in the past you've complained about not getting enough real c/c...it seems silly then to now complain that the real c/c you're getting isn't the kind you want. Especially since you've seemed to be very clear in the variety you want. You point to Saraquael as an example of someone who everyone is oohing and ahing about...and his stuff is good...but if you put him in a forum of people who know more about his line of art, I bet he will tell you that he has been picked apart like any of the rest of us and probably continues to be. It is how an artist grows. If you would rather us give you platitudes rather than hearing where you can really improve then that kind of c/c is also available to you here if you happen to actually request it. I don't recall ever getting ANY negative criticism at NS that wasn't given by someone who was a regular at TAC...even when I was first starting out...and trust me, I SUCKED. Believe me when I say that this harsher c/c IS improving your work. As I've said before, I can't figure DAZ out for the life of me and decided to stick it out for getting poser. So good on you for continuing to put in the effort...but knowing you don't completely know what you're doing, why ask for c/c 5?

For example, in the case of this piece, you asked for the following:

This is requesting VERY specific criticism. Before having read everyone else's comments, my thought was that your hair in this piece at least, seems to be improving. The texture was by far closer to real hair than your last piece. However, I'd be careful with the form the hair is taking...she looks a bit to me like she has a receding hairline and I think it's because of height issues in the back. I never could figure out skin textures, so I wouldn't offer any comment on that...I didn't have any cool armour, so I wouldn't offer any comment on that either. I tend to not comment on things I don't know anything about. It makes me sound like less of an idiot

Anyway, I guess no one is asking you not to use NS. I think we all still go there some from time to time. But we are however encouraging you to be careful what you wish for

ok.

just for clarification, this is an example of "negative" c/c:

"its absolutely awful. it shows absolutely no talent whatsoever"

example of positive c/c:

"X and Y and Z need to be fixed".

You asked for COMMENTS AND CRITICISM. the very meaning of "c/c", and now you're complaining because you got what you asked for, instead of a pat on the back for a job well done.

Face it kiddo, 3d art is NOT easy, just cause you got a program that can stick a shield to an arm and dress a model up, doesnt mean you can make stuff praise-worthy. It takes hours and hours and hours, even DAYS, to make something that is truly considered "a big effort".

here's a tip. once you've exhausted your eyes on a piece, put it away and play with something else. The next day, come back and look at it, you'll see very well the flaws in it, without having to ask other people.

What Saraq said was dead on. Relying 100% on other people to say your work is good, is going to make you a very shitty 'artist'.

On another note, you've known TAC to be a very c/c'ing board. You've had problems before with us not praising you enough.

This isnt said to chase you off, or to be mean. But sugar-coating isnt my thing, and i've noticed people fail to 'get it' unless you are raw and blunt about it.

You want to improve as an artist? Stop posting expecting people to wank it over your stuff. You have got to either learn to accept that you dont make wonderful pieces of art (yet). If you can't handle simple c/c, then go back to NS. where you'll get NOWHERE as an artist because they couldn't give real c/c if their lives depended on it.

CC = Constructive Critism

Definition is as follows (from webster)

Main Entry: constructive criticism
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: criticism or advice that is useful and intended to help or improve something, often with an offer of possible solution

Ouch, Vex

Vex, I wank it over your stuff all the time.
That is all.