Discussion: Rape in literature (split from Hart's Hope)

My apologies

I'm sorry Billie, you know I'm definitely in with the other books.

*nods* I got my copy, read the back cover, and haven't bothered to read it...

I don't quite understand the point of having rape in a book, or a TV show or movie, for that matter. Why glorify what I personally find is one of the most atrocious crimes that you can commit against another living creature? Even when the rapist "gets it" in the end (dies, wishes he did, whatever), it is still a type of glorification.

I'd say about 4/5's of my friends have been victims of rape...and I've done a lot of research on it, and its prevention... It's horrible, and I've passed on several "really good books" or movies that were suggested to me cause of the subject. Stephen Donaldson's "Lord Foul's Bane" and the following books have always been highly recommended to me...I started reading them, and the HERO of the book rapes a girl within the first couple of chapters. WTF is that about?! Lame, I say.

Anyway, that's my rant for the day...and I don't think I have any interest in readin' this selection either...Which is cool, cause I picked up Mythago Wood and have been reading that one...pretty good so far!

I dont mean to deter anyone else from reading it. I've never been raped but its just a huge phobia from when I was a young girl. I inadvertently turned the channel to 'The Accused' right as they were doing a flashback of her rape. It stayed with me for weeks. I just can't watch, read or deal with it. =/ I know Hart's is a great book and I"m sorry I can't get past the rape issues, I know its a big part of the whole plot and can't be skipped, I just can't.

In reply to Nas' post:

Rape is a violent and horrible thing. It doesn't annoy me or upset me that it is found in literature and popular movies because that shit happens. It disgusts me, the act, not the media its being portrayed on. You can't tell a story about an atrocity without explaining what happened. I realize that. I respect that. I know I've missed out on excellent movies and books because the word rape was mentioned.

Best friend says to me, 'This movie was great.'
I reply, 'Wow really? Cool I'll see it.'
Best friend replies, 'No dont, it has rape.'
I reply, 'well poop.'

Veb just got done reading an excellent zombie book and was telling me about it. I was all excited, wanting to read it. He said, 'It has rape in it.'

Crap.

You know I will probably still read it. I shouldnt personally let that affect me but I can't help that it does. But again its the act that would disgust me, not the author or media publishing it.

Mae, I think that's a really good distinction to make. I am rather uncomfortable with the idea that people who choose to read certain works of literature are insensitive and uncaring to the atrocities they portray. This is simply not true, and I think your post clarifies that fine point better than I could .

Furthermore, I find the idea that -all- fiction that portrays rape is a glorification to be somewhat closed minded and a, if not outright dangerous, at the very least suspicious way of viewing literature. To me it is the equivalent of saying that Harry Potter glorifies the occult, or Fahrenheit 411 glorifies book burning. The first example takes, in my opinion, a morally neutral book that tells a story and attributes evil where none exists. The second example takes a book that speaks out -against- an act, but must portray it in order to explore its evil.

No, I'm not calling anyone a dirty book burning Nazi btw. I just see that sweeping generalization of all rape being glorification as...not being in the right direction .

Hehe, wow...not what I meant at all. In fact, talking about rape helps to increase knowledge about it, etc. Perhaps I should have been a bit more specific.

For example...there is a movie, which I cannot for the life of me think of its title, which has a ten minute rape scene, in which the rapist attacks the woman and anally rapes her. Now, is that really necessary? 10 minutes? Or showing that? Now, isn't there a better way of making it understood that she was attacked that showing a 10 minute scene?

As far as literature, isn't there a better way than describing for 3 or 4 pages the sexual violation of a person? I'm not trying to assume that is the way that Hart's Hope is, but it's just an example of what irritates me. Or "glorifying" rape by making the hero of the book a rapist, such as in Lord Foul's Bane?

When talking to friends that have been raped, all they had to do was tell me, "I was raped." Or even, "I was hurt." And I would understand. I don't need them to tell me details in order to understand that they were hurt, and that it was a bad thing.

To me, detailed depictions of things like rape are like people standing around while someone gets stabbed over and over in the street...and it happens...in real life.

*shrugs* I didn't say Hart's Hope was a bad book. I just don't have the desire to read it right now...perhaps I will in the future, as well as Lord Foul's Bane, or other books that have the subject of rape in it. I don't wanna burn it, or have other people not read it...I was just bringing up the subject that I feel that most depcitions of rape are pretty useless in literature, movies, etc, because they are a bit overdone.

I too have friends that want to go see that new great movie, and then they pass because it has a rape scene in it...it alienates an entire audience, because of a stupid act against another person. Now, if that movie had just "let it be known" that the person was attacked, the knowledge would be there, the audience would understand, but there would be no graphic scenes. I think knowing that a guy is a rapist is enough to make people not like his "character" enough without the need to show it.

/rant off

*LOL*

As a note, I have read novels with rape in them. One of my favorite authors, Brian Lumley, has a rape scene or two in his Necroscope series. While disturbing, he does a wonderful job at making it understood that the attacker is a monster (in this case, literally), an evil being, NOT the hero. He makes it understood that it ISN'T ok.

I am not saying that in Hart's Hope, rape is made out to be ok...I haven't read it yet, so I can't make any assumption...I was just bringing up the question of why there is a need to put graphic rape into books, movies, etc. Yes, much of the time, stories show horrible things to show the good as well...and I think that's cool...it's just the manner of presentation that makes me question.

I hope that all made sense. It's was a bit rambly...

*nods* I totally agree with this...I picked up a bunch more of Card's stuff recently, because I have heard that he is a great writer! The subject of rape in one of his books doesn't deter me from reading his books...just that one book, for right now. I don't even know how "graphic" the rape in Hart's Hope even is...more that at this moment in time, I don't care to find out.

Also, in my own writing, I have a character. Miishka is about 16, and was raised in a bad place, by bad people. Her father beat her, she was molested by her uncle and her uncle's friends with her father's knowledge, and her mother was a drug addict who did nothing to stop any of this. Miishka deals with all of this in the years that follow her escape from her family (after being sold as a slave). She is a wonderful character, and the horrible life that she had made her a strong person.

It's not that the subject of rape itself should not be in books...it's a reality that we should face...but I don't need to write in detail how Miishka was raped, ya know? It IS a preference, I think...and my preference is that details like that are unnecessary.

BUMP!

Sorry, I didn't see this string of posts at all and I can't help but put in my two cents

It just seems to me that we watch and read detailed descriptions of all sorts of other violent and terrible crimes. We can't see a war movie without depictions of war or a spy movie without depictions of torture. Like it or not, human beings can be vile and horrible creatures and in order to present the full spectrum of who we are, sometimes details are necessary.

I have sensitivities to slavery and human injustices. I went and saw both Schindler's List and Amistad though I didn't really want to and had nightmares about it after the fact. The fact that such atrocities happened at all, let alone could happen again scares the bejeezus out of me. I refuse to watch Hotel Rwanda for that exact reason. That doesn't mean however that I think the detailed depiction of these things aren't necessary. In a world where people are so desensitized to violence I think it is vitally important that those individuals who view these horrors flippantly get a full understanding of what has happened and why and how easily it could happen again. In Mae's case, she's personally afraid of rape...but I'm betting that fear causes her to do things in a smart way to avoid that situation and to teach her daughter to do the same. So one might argue that her having seen that at such a young age has been a safeguard for her. It isn't irrational to fear rape to the point that you want to avoid it in literature/television. But it also isn't irrational to portray it so that one can learn to fear it if they don't already. Girls often do stupid things that put them in a position that allows for easy abuse. That is not to say that all rape victims have done that...but being aware of a situation is sometimes the best way to prepare for it.

All that having been said, I never did go out and get that book and I really wanted to :/ I imagine you're all done reading/discussing it by now!

Eh, I posted a thingy on the first 5 chapters and if anyone wants to pick up the conversation I'm game to continuing to talk it out.

http://theangrycrayon.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5128

Well, I'm bookless at the moment and my husband keeps going to the book store and buying books for HIS book club and forgetting to pick up mine. So I'll see what I can do on that front