*huffy sigh*

First let me say, I sympathize with how you feel, Kay, but I dont want this to turn into an NS flame. I've had my problems there, but I still respect that some tac members are still current NS members. That's all good, there's room on the internet for us all. Hi, that's my disclaimer =D

With that being said, yes, getting c/c is HARD. That's why I make it a point to try and c/c every single piece of art that comes thru here. Whether it's a :thumbsup or a c/c5 nit pick. People hate having their art ignored. We make it to show off for a reason, right??!!! Staff is also encouraged to post c/c as well and it's one of the biggest reasons why Vex and I decided to revamp TAC.

So I'm sorry you feel that way, Kay. It maybe that there are a lot of newer people on NS that aren't comfortable posting c/c yet. I know I dont get as detailed as I'd like with Freehand or Pixel art. Always feel free to post your art here and get c/c =)

:ghug

The larger a community gets, the harder it gets for feedback from people. AND when you do get feedback, you have to filter out the ocmments by people who are talking just to talk and those who want to help, but don't really know what they're talking about. More often than not, the people that get the comments are the more prominant posters. Hell, way back when I used to get a lot of responses to drawings I posted, which is fun for a while but not a whole lot constructive came out of it. lol

I know they've said several times in the past that there aren't any cliques, but there are. Don't get me wrong, it's not a bad thing. Every community has a group of friends that'll be tighter than others. Anywho, with said group of friends, people will comment and pat each other on the back and encourage them. It's kind of a cyclical thing. I've seen it at ither art communities, fiction classes, poetry readings.. you name it.

I think that since NS is so HEAVILY focused on "being positive and nurturing" that people are afraid to give C/C unless they are also able to throw on a heaping pile of sugar to soften the blow :)

*sniff* Thanks guys.


I don't want to flame NS either Mae. I am just annoyed and needed to voice it, and can't do it there.

Heh, I should proably make it clear that I have nothing against the mods or admins on NS. I'm actually on good terms with them and respect the work that they do (which, on a board of that size has GOT to be a pai nin the ass). But, I'd be lying if I siad that there weren't posters there that talk more than they know.

Whether I should comment here on this topic or not, I don't know. Obviously, though, I'm choosing to. =)

Kayt, if it makes you feel better, even -I- don't post my work there anymore. More on that in a moment. =)

I appreciate the note to not make this a NS flame fest. There are still many great artists there, as well as active posters. Think of NS like school. Right now, some of the seniors have graduated and moved on. The freshmen are new to the game, but will soon grow into non-stop CC chatterboxes. In time, the seniors will come back for a visit and linger for awhile longer. In that time, the seniors get to know some freshman, the freshman learn from the seniors. Then the freshman soon become the seniors waiting to teach the sophmores and juniors. Rinse. Wash. Repeat.

TAC and NS are like Apples and Oranges. Both are great to eat. Both are healthy. But, one always tastes better than the other to people. (Personally, I enjoy canteloupe)

/tries to think of another little analogy.

Ok, so I'm out of analogies.

I'm sorry NS has disappointed you. If I had the time, I'd post CC where I could, when I could. But, I barely have time to make signatures, much less comment on other peoples'. Which is why I don't post them here (nor NS) for CC either. I don't feel right requesting CC when I don't have the time to offer it.

NS has cliques. Everywhere does. Even here. It doesn't mean they're a bad thing. It just means, even in the online world, people have a habit of forming a group. It's basic human nature for most. To have people around you, that you trust, can chat with about anything, can gossip with, etc. On NS, if you're not one of the top recognized artists, then saddly enough, comments are hard to get. I don't like that fact, but it's there. And it doesn't apply to each thread. I've seen new members post and get good CC, as well as new members posting CC. But it seems to come in waves.

Oh oh oh! Another analogy!
The ocean! NS is like the ocean. Sometimes swelling, sometimes retreating, constantly shifting. hmm. That sounds famaliar...may have read that in a book before.

To be honest, being a member of this community as well as NS is weird...and odd at times. Seeing posts like this one doesn't bother me, it's statements that I'm already aware of.

To me, both boards are wonderful in their own unique ways. It's like I have two different online personas. On NS I'm the quiet type, admin, watches out for spammers, helps the other admins with solutions, do-gooder (/winks at Vex), etc. Here, I don't have to worry about a spammer, nor do I have to worry about bouncing e-mails, 0 post counts, flame wars, etc. I can relax here more. My inbox here doesn't get flooded daily with PMs from members needing something, whinning about something, suggesting something, etc etc.

Apples and oranges.
/nod

EDIT: I realize this post probably didn't help you at all. My apologies for that. Just something that has been on my mind since I've seen the first post regarding NS here.
Also, the ocean analogy -was- from a book I have read.
In Silence by Erica Spindler.
EDIT B: You guys know I love you. TAC is by far one of the best boards I've been privledged enough to be a part of.
EDIT III: I'm actually not submitting my post and editting it. I'm previewing it, then adding these little things at the bottom.
EDIT cuatro: See? I didn't even preveiw that time.
EDIT Fini: I'm fucking stressed and tired....does it show?

The person that I learned to first make sigs from was in my guild on Cazic-Thule server. She wasn't hugely talented because she, like me, was self-teaching herself how to use Photoshop. We both worked on each other's character sigs. She was braver about posting than I was at first. But one time she posted a freehand drawing that she worked her ass of on, and didn't get any c/c at all. Then someone in the big NS clique posted above my friend's, and that person got tons of little "oh wow that's great" posts that offered no real c/c. My friend still didn't get any. She got mad and posted in her thread that she felt like she wouldn't get any c/c because she wasn't part of the clique. Basically, from what she tells me, she got thrown off the board. NS members went to other communities and badmouthed her, because she dared to criticize NS. She stopped doing art with me and stopped playing EQ shortly thereafter :( I really miss her, she was a good friend. I'm surprised that I kept on with the artwork, seeing what happened to her. But this was like 2 years ago.

There's a definite clique, but I think it naturally comes from those who post more than others. Those who talk more are going to make more friendships and get to know each other better than those that lurk in the back and don't talk. But when the lurkers need/want c/c on a piece, the talkers are too busy talking to each other to help the lurkers. It's not a bad environment, but it can be interpreted as bad by the lurkers. I've had a very hard time getting c/c on my pieces also.

Silly me.
Making posts I shouldn't.
Delete this por'favor!

/fuggles Kayt

Yeah, NS is just a huge place now and the number of new posts can sometimes make it daunting to c/c everything. Like Immy said, there is an ebb and flow there - they have busy and slow times. And it is a training ground where often people are handled with kid gloves.

I like to think of TAC as a counterpart to NS rather than a competitor. The c/c is a little bit more mature and the majority of the artists here are not taking their first baby steps (although those artists are certainly welcome and encouraged to share). No, it's not a gfxartist type of place and it's not intended to be the next stepping stone for people starting out at NS, but it's like a stop off the beaten path that's a nice surprise when you find it. I'm glad NS has had the success it has had, but I hope TAC doesn't become as large or as daunting to visit.

im not a crazy poster in general, but i read/look at every art thread created on TAC. occasionally Roz pokes me to post instead of just making comments to her :P

I'm the quiet type everywhere, unless im provoked (/winks at immy)

at any rate, NS went downhill a year+ ago. I havent enjoyed visiting that place for a long while, i dont even have it bookmarked. Only time i go there is when roz or eve tell me to read something =P

glad you like it here, kayt =D

One thing that might help you get crits both here and on NS is to ask for certain things specifically.. that gives people things to look at.

For instance.. I had trouble with the hair on this piece..does it look real, too dark, is there anything I should add? That gives people specific questions to answer and of course invite them to add anything else that they feel might help. I think you'll find it will get a few more responses. People like being helpful, they dislike hurting people's feelings (for the most part) and sometimes you just look at something and draw a complete blank so the direction helps that.

wuwu I got fuggled! :sproing

Thank you. It helps to know I'm not jsut whining. Thanks for the advice Mai. I will try that next time. Though I don't always know where there needs improvment, but that will help alot I think. :bunny2

Heh, I actually have a few signs that trigger and make me not want to even bother commenting on people's work. This was learned across various art message boards through the years.

1. Cocky artist.

You know what I'm talking about. This artist is always yapping. They may not always say it directly, but if you read between the lines it says very clearly "I am so cool! Love me!" It's generally a side-effect of popularity. They're worshipped and praised so heavily that they buy into their own hype.

2. "I whipped this up in 5 minutes!"

a. When it really took all day. this is pretty much a loaded statement. The correct
response is "Whoa! you did that in 5 minutes?!!! it would have taken me all day!!!"
Sorry, don't play that game

b. When it really took 5 minutes. Speed-practicing and work in progress aside. If it
takes me longer to write a c/c than you spent doing a piece something is off-kilter.

3. Excuses, excuses, excuses.

"I was just doing it for fun" "I didn't have enough time" "I like it how it is". I'm sure we've all seen this plenty of times too. My personal belief is that if you post something up for C/C just sit and listen. Don't give excuses, don't get defensive. Take what they say and analyze and break it down. Seperate the real C/C from the fluff and it'll help you out more than rationalizing what you did to them.

4. I'm not an artist, but I play one on tv"

This is starting to become more common these days. This person likes to talk and pretty much force feed advice... but it isn't always right or helpful. They'll throw out the big words to seem smarter. Most people will think "gee, they're pretty helpful". Though anyone with any education in art (whether it be by school or by books) will know they're talking out of their ass. There's no shame in not knowing the answer, but going around pretending you're knowledgable when you're just spouting verbal flatulance is harmful to those who ACTUALLY WANT TO LEARN! They also tend to speak in absolutes.

5. LOOK AT MEEEEEE!!!!

This is less related to the art itself. If every other day results in you posting a "woe is me thread" then I won't comment on your art because I'll assume it's another method you're using to get attention. To me, that's disrespectful to the artform. But that's just me.

6. Circle the wagons!

The occasional clique that forms will result in a circle of friends all telling each other how great their work is. Just as the circle of wagons protected people from the arrows of their attackers, this circle tends to make the posters immune to serious critiques.

7. C without the C

Some people just want compliments I guess. I never really agreed with the shifting scale of C/C or really the whole "no c/C unless asked for" system encorporated. Most times, people are trying to help and this pushes the hand away. If I saw a person struggling in the water, I'd try to help them... even if they didn't ask for it ahead of time. How is this relevant? Well, people are trying to help you!! You're drowning in the sea of mediocrity. Take the hand dammit! TAKE THE HAND!!!!

I think I fall into like 4 of those categories

And this isn't a #5 ;)


I really try to say something on people's work, especially if there hasn't been any other responses yet. Even if it's just to say, "wow, I really don't know anything about freehand, but it looks good to me." Just so they know someone has seen it and cares enough to jot something down. Not helpful except to make them feel better. But there's times in the morning where all I want to do is eat my cereal and look at the purty art and not have to think about parts to CC.

If I've ever given CC and you guys sat and rolled your eyes and wondered what the hell I was talking about, I'm sorry! And since I'm sure it will happen again in the future, I give you my advanced apologies =)

Kat, sorry you had to feel like no one cared enough to CC. Has happened to me a few times as well, and it sucks =( I hope that you do continue to post your work, and you aren't discouraged to keep from practicing.

I guess this means I'll never get Saraquael c/c *sniff*

*giggles*


Thanks, Annelise. It won't. I just won't be posting my art over there. Not that much of a loss really. I like it here. *snuggles into her armchair.*

It's overrated anyways :)

I will always look back at NS fondly when screen manip blew up and I learned SO SO much. I encourage everyone to try and c/c every piece you see here. Sandwich c/c, I find, helps when honestly you're at a loss for words because that happens. I've had art like that, everyone has.

Say something good + give 1 constructive criticism + something good = C/C. It gives that person encouragement and a good tip on how to be better. A lot of great communication can come about c/c'ing a piece. Tips can be exchanged, techniques and get to know the other members on the board. TAC has it's cliques and that probably stems from it once being my board and the solusek ro board at one point. I'd like the think that its come a long way since then.

Enjoy it for what it is, learn from it, share with it. Wow, can I have my nobel peace prize now? :teehee

Ah.. but what if you can't find that many good things to say? It happens. Sometimes, try though you may you can't find squat good to say.

I'm just being evil now, don't mind me. lol.

:lmao That's a nice list and very true. I know there is a list of people I just don't bother commenting on for various reasons.

I hate typing up comments only to have the artist come back and tell me some excuse for why its not anatomically correct or why they left those stray pixels there or whatever. I might try more than once because sometimes I have explained something myself so I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and try again but if repeated attempts at helping comes up with defensiveness constantly then forget it.

Art spam

Another one that will get me not to comment is spamming a board with stuff to c/c. Dollers are especially good at this one because some people can churn several dolls out in a day.. though I don't know how.. those things take me longer than 3d work. But if I can look down through my unread posts and see someone's name on 2 or 3 threads each day.. it gets old. There are people's styles that I love to see but coming in and seeing piece after piece each day dries up the interest and the comments.

I don't even like seeing my own artwork that often... makes it hard to work sometimes. O_o

Didn't ask for C/C

This is kind of in the "take the hand" catagory but I've actually seen someone post a piece of work and not say whether they wanted crits and comments or not and someone offered a few pieces of advice along with telling them what they liked about the piece. The artist came back angry and said they didn't want crits. If it isn't safe to tell you the truth then I'll not bother because I don't want to hear sugar coated nothingness about my own work and I don't want to waste time writing it about someone else's either.

Post bumping

This happens a lot on doll boards, I've seen it once or twice on NS...mostly in the pixel section. Someone answering every single post to their thread with some tiny comment in order to keep their post on the top of the list. This just annoys me.

Gush - make me a pic

OMG you are Awesome! Make me something?!?!? This makes me really doubt the first part of the statement and I just assume you're interested in a free piece of art. This doesn't happen to me often but it has happened and I've seen it quite often on NS to every artist that has the artwork we all drool over. If you're just meaning to compliment, then compliment.


*wonders how many she fits into on Saraquael's list* Still giggling about TAKE THE HAND though.

This actually cracked me up. Not that it isn't true, it is. In fact it reminds of a specific comment made on one of my pieces. Saraquael you just have a way with words. Seriously though, your honesty and eloquence are both admirable and appreciated.



On the topic though, I have also had problems getting comments. I have tried listing the level of c/c I want which is always 5. I have also tried listing areas that I am having trouble. These tactics do not necessarily work at getting more comments but in general the one or two that i do get tend to be of better quality, which is what is important.

The one thing I have found that really helps is asking someone directly if they will go and look at something for you and comment. Most would willingly do so. There are those who I know will be completely honest with me and point out where I need to work. That is of course one of the great things about TAC. There are enough brutally honest people here, that they are not going to let you get lazy.

heh, in general, if a person thinks that the posts may apply to them, it usually doesn't. I think the ones that have annoyed me are pretty oblivious to the hints around them. I guess for me, as someone who has devoted a lot to the art (ie put all my eggs in one basket) I have respect for people who want to improve and lost it for people who don't.

Oh crap, here I go bumpinb it again.

Bump bump!