The Crayon Box / Do you give it and how do you like it? C/C, pervs! / ROzbeans 20 years ago

Do you give it and how do you like it? C/C, pervs!

I'm curious, most of us here are on several art boards, more notably NS. Now, I know a lot of us have migrated from there to here and whatever the reasons are, that's cool. This isn't a 'NS SUCKS' thread. I'm specifically wondering about how you like your c/c and if you give it.

My personal preference: c/c 5. Give it to me 6 ways from sunday. Now that's only happened recently. I used to honestly prefer lvl 2-3 which is like 'nice piece, fix that, very pretty'. Then suddenly I got nothing. Zip. Zero. Nadda. You could probably chalk that up to me not being the more flowery of speakers at NS even after I went out of my way to c/c almost every piece in the manip section. I digress...the lack of c/c maybe me do even more work but I started to post it here. When this was originally my commission board, it was mostly to show clients their WIP's, but I almost always asked Vex, Gilae or Ryala.

I think you can have a varying degree of c/c here on TAC, you just have to ask for it, but unfortunately there are those who dont. We are often mistaken for NS - its subtle c/c mannerisms. The difference between us and NS (because honestly it's all I've ever known, never asked for c/c elsewhere thus the constant comparison) is that we expect c/c to be included with the 'oh i love this piece'.

Fluffing is more than welcomed, but for me personally...it had better come with some scathing c/c. I need to know what's wrong. I need to know what I can do better. Again, that's me. For artists in unfamiliar mediums, I guess it's my own mistake to give you lvl c/c4 along with my fluff since more often than not, newer art will have more of the former, than the latter. There are experienced artists here on TAC: Saraquael for example, but none of us here think we're above the ability to remember where we came from. It's not about remembering who you were in the beginning, it's about the path you took to get where you are now and sharing those experiences thru c/c. Everyone has a different artist style and it can be said also for their style of constructive criticism, but that doesn't make it 'NEGATIVE', just honest.

So I give it on every post I can, unless the points have been covered, THEN (and only then) will I fluff with the positives. I will 'comment' on the good points, but honestly if you dont want to progress, there isn't much more I can say. With that being said, I'm no uber l33t artist. I have my own problems but we all bring to the table certain things we're good at. I actually had someone tell me today, 'Maybe I should tone down my c/c?' and I got all discombobulated and demanded that this person didnt. That their interpretation of c/c is always warranted and should be appreciated.

With all this being said, C/C 1-3 is more than welcomed here at TAC. This is not a l33t board, we're an ADULT board and with that I'd like to add, we dont hold hands here. We shouldnt have to. Yes it requires some thick skin, but only to those asking for lvl 4 and higher. No one here is being shitty in their c/c. It's honest and to the point for some, sandwiched (my preference) for others. C/C is fucking hard to come by so I get it as hard as I can because I trust my friends and I trust the people here not to be shits about it.

So yes, I give it and it's lvl 4 by default. Yes, I want it, lvl 5 million if I could. No, I dont take anything anyone says personally and I understand that some c/c is personal preference. So I put it to you, my angry crayon brethren, to be vocal about the level of c/c you want and to not sweat the small stuff.

kk, next?

Hijinks 20 years ago
Ryala, I'm trying to just have a discussion and debate about CC. I haven't said one damn thing in anger directed at ANYONE or ANYTHING about this board.

What I do have a problem with is that people have to make a statement about posting at another board like they're taking their toys to play in a better sandbox. I don't care if you post on another board, but don't make a big stink about it here.


I did not post the issue first. I sent a pm to someone, thanking them for their help on my pieces, and that I did not want them to think I gave up, but that I'd be posting for my CC elsewhere, and that I wasn't upset or angry or anything, but just going where I could get better CC. The person who received that pm can speak up if they want, or not, I don't care either way, but I did not post publicly about it.

The next post on my CC piece was about NS and how they are all fluff. I assumed that my going to NS had been brought up to that person and so I felt the need to defend my decision. I realize you have said that you didn't read that thread so I don't expect that you know that, but I did. not. post. first. about. NS.

I also said in that thread that I would like to stay here for general chat and the roleplaying. Mae said that was fine with her, and that I should do whatever I needed to do. Other folks chimed in with their opinions, and I chatted back and forth about what I needed versus what was offered, and what I planned to do to suit my needs. I was never upset, angry, or malicious. I don't have any grudges against anyone and never posted like I did.

However, when there is a new post about CC and who wants what, I assumed it was spawned from my original post. Some of the responses in this thread seem to be directly related to the other post, and so I felt I wanted to talk about it some more. I haven't told anyone that they are wrong, I have stated how what has happened in the past has affected me, and how I feel about it. I don't think anyone has the right to ever tell anyone that their feelings are wrong.

If you don't want me here, Ryala, I will leave. I at no point ever directly attacked anyone by name, or by quote, but I feel that you have attacked me here. Say the word and I'm gone.
Rikr 20 years ago
Ryala
I believe less in c/c levels and more in just plain old good or bad c/c and good or bad c/c reception.


Too many levels of critique. I'd prefer 2 levels. 1.Sweet and fluffy 2.Honest and potentially painful. Even if you get #2 cc, its ok to tell someone what you like. I dont give a lot of CC, because I don't know how some people will take it. I don't think any CC, when you are asking for CC, should be taken personally. When CC is asked for, the people supplying it should be honest. They are the ones looking at it in a different perspective, and can find stuff that doesn't look quite right. If you want to learn and grow as an artist, you have to be prepared to hear the truth, even if you dont like it.

I would prefer all CC be lvl 5, unless the artist asks for Fluff. Again....even if level 5 CC is asked, i think the CC'er should also say what works / what they like about the piece too. If I knew people wouldn't be hurt by my CC I might give it more. :)

In Art School / Class, they never asked us what level of critique to give. It was always What do you like about the piece, what do you not like about the piece.....followed by suggestions for the next piece.
Hijinks 20 years ago
In Art School / Class, they never asked us what level of critique to give. It was always What do you like about the piece, what do you not like about the piece.....followed by suggestions for the next piece.


That's what I usually try to give. A compliment about what I like about a piece, followed by what I notice that needs work/improvement/changing.
Guest 20 years ago
Hijinks
Ryala, I'm trying to just have a discussion and debate about CC. I haven't said one damn thing in anger directed at ANYONE or ANYTHING about this board.


I just read through my post again to see if I missed something and I don't believe I mentioned anything about you posting in anger at anyone. What I said was you should stop assuming the intent of the thread was to rip on you or further discuss your original post in the 3D forum about posting elsewhere. News Flash: This thread was not intended to be about you.

Hijinks
The next post on my CC piece was about NS and how they are all fluff. I assumed that my going to NS had been brought up to that person and so I felt the need to defend my decision. I realize you have said that you didn't read that thread so I don't expect that you know that, but I did. not. post. first. about. NS.


It doesn't matter who posted first about NS. That's not an issue. If I do a search on the board for "NS", I'm sure I'll find a wealth of entries. It's a common comparison around here, so I don't see much foundation in your assumption that people mentioned your PM to someone else to spawn the post.

The issue is about you finding it necessary to announce your plan to post for c/c there exclusively. You made the decision and you told someone about it privately. That's all fine and good. However, *you* were the first to bring up requesting c/c only there. Again, it's uncouth to make an announcement.

Hijinks
...I chatted back and forth about what I needed versus what was offered, and what I planned to do to suit my needs.


I've read through your thread now and there is a point several people made which is quite appropriate for your situation - if you were clearer on the type of responses you needed, you'd probably get more of what you want. If you post for c/c 4, you're going to get more crit, less hand-holding. You want more hand-holding? No problem. Ask for c/c 2 so people know you need the fluff along with the mild crits. Don't complain you're not getting what you want when you're not asking correctly. If you go to a restaurant and ask for tea, they bring you iced and you wanted hot, the problem is communication and not what is available.

Hijinks
If you don't want me here, Ryala, I will leave. I at no point ever directly attacked anyone by name, or by quote, but I feel that you have attacked me here. Say the word and I'm gone.


I'm sorry, but you come into a general thread on c/c and post about your own specific situation. If I reply to your post, how is that not going to be directed toward you in any way? That's faulty logic. I don't believe I've made any direct attacks on you - I simply replied to your statements. If you're going to turn everything into a personal issue and remain unable to discuss a topic abstractly without making it out to be an attack, I'll pack up your toys for you.
Guest 20 years ago
Rikr
Too many levels of critique. I'd prefer 2 levels. 1.Sweet and fluffy 2.Honest and potentially painful. Even if you get #2 cc, its ok to tell someone what you like. I dont give a lot of CC, because I don't know how some people will take it. I don't think any CC, when you are asking for CC, should be taken personally. When CC is asked for, the people supplying it should be honest. They are the ones looking at it in a different perspective, and can find stuff that doesn't look quite right. If you want to learn and grow as an artist, you have to be prepared to hear the truth, even if you dont like it.

I would prefer all CC be lvl 5, unless the artist asks for Fluff. Again....even if level 5 CC is asked, i think the CC'er should also say what works / what they like about the piece too. If I knew people wouldn't be hurt by my CC I might give it more. :)

In Art School / Class, they never asked us what level of critique to give. It was always What do you like about the piece, what do you not like about the piece.....followed by suggestions for the next piece.



I agree, Rikr. It's either c/c or no c/c with me these days. I have to share my work daily as well as critique other people's pieces. My professors would mark me down if all I said was "Wow, that rocks!"
Hijinks 20 years ago
Fair enough. I apologize to everyone here that I mistakenly assumed that the thread here was in any way related to the thread in the 3d forum. I don't personally think I assumed that wrong - I think Mae posted it to ask what people want, based on that thread from yesterday. But that's my opinion and you obviously have yours.

Based upon the responses in this thread, I felt that people were annoyed with me for starting a fire. I felt badly that people were annoyed. I apologized for that, and for other things that I said that were taken wrong. But I'm not going to pursue it further.

I was asked why would I want to go to NS, on the other thread, by Mae. I responded and explained my decision. She was fine with it. Then others jumped in and posted their opinions on the situation, and I felt that I needed to explain mysellf further. Then this post suddenly appeared. Coincidence? I doubt it. But ok whatever.

I apologize to everyone here for my presumptions.

Please read the following sentence as me just explaining, NOT trying to say "You're mean, I'm leaving!" or announcing that I'm "packing up my toys and leaving" but just what it is so no one has to bother posting anything directed at me any more. I won't visit any more, because this is very painful for me. I'm sorry I asked for the wrong level of CC although above I did explain why I asked for the level I did. I'm sorry I took the CC wrong. I'm sorry my feelings were hurt. I'm sorry I was too sensitive. I'm sorry I'm crying now and letting this bother me. I've tried to just have a discussion and figure out what I did wrong, what I should have done, and I'm sorry I'm wrong, wrong, wrong.
Gilae 20 years ago
Hmm...I'm not sure how things have exploded so far out of proportion. It seems to me the two c/cs that is causing Hijinks so much pain were from the same person...and if she has problem with that particular person's c/c, then she should be discussing it directly with her. All of this is getting a bit melodramatic in my opinion. If I wanted melodrama, I'd go watch a soap.

I am personally of the mindset that sometimes pieces ARE crap and if I can't find anything I like about them, I'm not going to say that I have. I will again use myself as an example. When I started posting on TAC, I SUCKED. Not just a little bit. I had very little to no idea how to use photoshop and I've never taken so much as a single art class. Sometimes I posted things and I got no reaction...and I knew the complete lack of reaction was likely a result of people thinking "riiiight. what the hell is that" so instead of getting all flustered about it, I consulted people privately. Everyone here has PM abilities and almost everyone has links to yahoo, AIM or email. I asked Mae's permission if I could copy the style of some of the things she did and as she told me, the best way to learn is to gank styles from here and there and adopt them to yourself. As I continued to learn, she continued to tell me which parts sucked. I STILL will consult privately on something I am just not getting right. To this day, if I do a piece that just blows, I'd much prefer someone say "Ruth, there is absolutely nothing redeemable about that garbage, start again."

It may come as some surprise to some, I am actually quite a sensitive person. I do get hurt rather easily if someone doesn't like me or my stuffs. But the trick is to remember if it's malicious hate or simple CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. This is really the key word here. If someone is just saying wow you suck and never telling you why, then sure be upset about it. But if they're saying "wow that sucks, and this is why" then file it away for use later and get better so next time they can say "wow, that's awesome! how did you do that?"

I really don't see any reason at this point for anyone to be getting upset and/or crying. Ryala isn't a scary or angry person. She's a "I call it as I see it" person. No one is asking you to agree with her. I don't think she said anything really mean either...but then again I've met the bitch IRL and she's not that scary ;)

I smell lunch. We're hungry. But feel free to PM me or yahoo me if what I'm saying doesn't ring true or make sense to you.
ROzbeans 20 years ago
This topic was made to ask the opinion of regular members 'what type of c/c they wanted and if they gave it'. It was NOT about you, Hijinks. This was not made to trash NS or Hijinks, but she called attention to herself and assumed, again, that this was personal and now we have an issue of hurt feelings. Let me say to Hijinks now, if you want to discuss this further, either with the person who have you the c/c that offended you or with me, take it to PM's please.

I appreciate everyone's input on the question asked, I just wanted this to be an open discussion about something that means a lot to us. I think TAC needs to adopt it's own policy about c/c guidelines which the staff will be discussing. For now, people should read over the guidelines before they post for c/c. Go as far as explaining what type of c/c you want, not just 'what do you think?' because if you ask what we think, you'll get a minimum of c/c4.

Tac is an adult board and we encourage high levels of c/c. We want to help you, not hurt you.
Guest 20 years ago
/stomps around

I am too scary!

<3 Gilly
Saraquael 20 years ago
Rawr!!!

But yeah, I'm pretty much of the belief that there are too many levels. I never really agreed with them in NS and I don't really agree with them here either. I know the suggestered "yay+nay+yay" sandwich is useful to ease people in and soften the blow a bit, but even that states a mandatory compliment. Nothing altogether wrong with that, but I've found that there are times people will focus on the compliment and ignore the critiques too. On other boards I visit along with the RL c/c it's generally people pointing out just the things that need work. In general, the assumption should be that if it hasn't been pointed out as a weak point, then it's safe to assume that nothing is glaringly wrong with it.

But yeah, most places I've visited have it pretty much set so that critiques are at full blast, paintovers are in effect and armor is worn... unless specifically stated otherwise.

and.. uh...


DOWN WITH LEVELS!!!!




THE REVOLUTION IS AT HAND!!!!!
Rikr 20 years ago
I concur Ryala made me drop a deuce in my shorts earlier. :(
ROzbeans 20 years ago
If anyone has any suggestions on what they think are good c/c guidelines, feel free to pm them to me or a staff member. We're discussing this as I type this =D Thanks y'all.
immy 20 years ago
/gets ready to hold her 'drama' sign up, then mekely puts it away.

As far as CC with me. I LOVE giving CC!
For me, when I CC someones work, it helps me realize what I may be doing wrong within my own. Looking at a peice and thinking to myself, "Self, those eyes shouldn't be that wide on her sig. Hmm, Perhaps that was the same problem on the sig I just did." Or some shit like that. It made perfect sense in my head.

My only problem with giving CC is the time! When I sit down to CC a peice, I honestly take a good 15-30 minutes to fully evaluate the peice. I check everything, if I'm feeling anal, I'll save it and open it up in photoshop. Blow it up, look it over that way, erase the artists name and put mine on it, then sell it. Oh wait...I've said too much.

Seriously though, I enjoy giving CC, but don't find enough time during the day to give it.

As far as receiving CC. Hit meh. Bust my balls. Make me cry like a little pussy who just lost her one and only cock. Eh, you get my drift. CC10 for me with no need of compliments.

On to the more exciting issues of this thread:
Ryala isn't scary.

Oh wait, that's not what I was gonna comment on.
Having 5 levels of CC isn't a horrible thing, nor is it a necessary thing. I'd be kosher with 2 levels as well;
1-hold my hand and stroke me;
2-don't bother with a reach-around.

People have a certain way to CC. No matter if you ask for CC1 or CC5, most will give you the sammich effect. So, even if you change it to having two levels, I'm betting people would still put a compliment in with the harshest one. It's not a bad thing, it's the nature of people. We're avoiding hurt feelings.

If you think about it though....try to follow me on this... If you hurt my feelings, while I"m sitting at my computer and crying and cussing you and your mom, I'll open up photoshop. Realizing all my hurt and anger needs to be vented, I open up a blank box. Then start to draw or color or whatever. In two hours time, it's a masterpeice that I sell all over the world. Becoming rich and famous and going on the TV show, "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous", and when they ask "Where did you get the idea for this masterpeice, Amy?"...I'll let them know "I was inspired by the people at TAC!!". That will, in turn, create more traffic here and make this site even more famous too! Goddamn, I love irony. So you see, the moral is: You should always hurt feelings, because it makes people famous.

*ahem* Anyway.

If I thought my work sucked, I wouldn't post it. I would work on it until I've exhausted all possible ideas of making it look better. (see >this thread< for that exact situation). So, when I -do- ask for CC, I expect the hard shit.

Now that I've wasted a few minutes of your life while you read this...I can sleep better at night.
Adiene 20 years ago
Well as for me I'd rather people just be blunt instead of trying to sugar coat shit. If I am doing somthing wrong let me know so I can fix it , learn from it, spank it whatever... So if I post anything and ask for CC everyone should know I would appreciate 5. :) Unless anyone posts other wise I usualy give 3 - 4. =/
ROzbeans 20 years ago
The new TAC version of c/c is up. You'll notice there's no levels, just a guideline on what to expect when C/C'ing and tips on how to give well rounded c/c. Any questions or suggestions, just let us know =)
Calimaryn 20 years ago
I believe cc should follow the golden rule: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

If you would be hurt by your comments, rethink em. Offer solutions with your critiques. Dont over inflate fluff but dont be harsh cus thats jus mean. ;)

Of course I havent anything to get CC'd yet here so my opinion is just that, my opinion.
ROzbeans 20 years ago
Well put Cali =)
Saraquael 20 years ago
Calimaryn
I believe cc should follow the golden rule: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

If you would be hurt by your comments, rethink em. Offer solutions with your critiques. Dont over inflate fluff but dont be harsh cus thats jus mean. ;)

Of course I havent anything to get CC'd yet here so my opinion is just that, my opinion.


Only problem with that would be that some critiques can be taken as hurtful when they're not. Critiques... like art, apparently are highly subjective.

You should just rewrite the rules and say "Artist must have a box of tissues next to PC before posting". That way, if anything is taken the wrong way, everyone will be ready. :)
Carly 20 years ago
Rikr
Too many levels of critique. I'd prefer 2 levels. 1.Sweet and fluffy 2.Honest and potentially painful. Even if you get #2 cc, its ok to tell someone what you like. I dont give a lot of CC, because I don't know how some people will take it. I don't think any CC, when you are asking for CC, should be taken personally. When CC is asked for, the people supplying it should be honest. They are the ones looking at it in a different perspective, and can find stuff that doesn't look quite right. If you want to learn and grow as an artist, you have to be prepared to hear the truth, even if you dont like it.

I would prefer all CC be lvl 5, unless the artist asks for Fluff. Again....even if level 5 CC is asked, i think the CC'er should also say what works / what they like about the piece too. If I knew people wouldn't be hurt by my CC I might give it more. :)

In Art School / Class, they never asked us what level of critique to give. It was always What do you like about the piece, what do you not like about the piece.....followed by suggestions for the next piece.


Some art schools will tear your piece of the wall, rip it up and call it shit. That would be amazing but I'm sure I'd be pretty pissed about it after I realized my piece was just ripped out.

I find most art students are too nice, atleast at my school. You have the occasional person that will come in and be completely honest and it's nice.
Mai 20 years ago
Wow, there must be some nice people where you live. Where I went to college they were quite brutal but it equal brutality to everyone. Bring riot gear cause someone's gonna get hurt.

I had a boss doing evaluations and he smiled at me when I came in and said. "I haven't made anyone cry today so lets gets this started." He was disappointed but he gave it his best shot. ;)