I wanna be this mom

I would really love to be able to talk to this kid, because if he's anything like his mother he probably is dealing with this just fine. Her actions were totally rational, and I'd bet any amount of money she had no desire for revenge in her heart or head when she did what she did. As a parent, you do not punish your child for revenge...you punish them so they sit up, take notice, and learn.

*shakes head

I can say that I wouldn't realistically do it because I am extremely lazy. =D Take the car away for a while - only after I've talked to each and everyone of those kids and their parents. There are rules for Catherine and rules for her passengers and you damn straight I'd talk to her friends parents and let them know I found alcohol in my daughter's car. As a parent I'd want to know.

So take out an ad and sell the car? Probably not. Throw Catherine's friends under the bus along with her and let their parents know? Hell yes.

Having worked in the Justice system with Youth and Adult offenders I have learnt that public humiliation is not an effective deterrent. If anything the very act of naming and shaming can have the opposite intended effect (no matter how well intentioned that may be).

Teenagers already feel vulnerable, insecure and under pressure - not only from their parents, but their peers and the influence of popular media and societal expectations.

Destroying the self confidence and woth trust that a teenager or child has in themselves, and engendering resentment towards their parents, caregivers or authority figures through public humiliation and arbitrary confiscation of what the teenager or child considers a "valued" item or possession is potentially more damaging both pyschologically and developmentally than taking the time to make the teenager or child take responsibility for their actions in a constructive and educative manner.

A parent should not be seen as a figure of punishment, but of values, morals and support. This mother probably did have the best interests of her teenager at heart and was acting rationally according to her belief system (although I would argue if her son is old enough to vote, or serve his country then he's an adult), but her methods leave a lot to be desired.

While the mother may see her actions as reasonable and just, the son may see the "theft" of a "valued" possession as petty and vindicative .

Teach your child (or teenager) that the confiscation of possessions is a legitimate means of enforcing a point and what have you really achieved?

This poem by Dorothy Law Nolte may be over 50 years old, but I find it poignant and just as relevant today as when it was first written.

Children Learn What They Live
by Dorothy Law Nolte (1954)

If children live with criticism, they learn to condemn.
If children live with hostility, they learn to fight.
If children live with fear, they learn to be apprehensive.
If children live with pity, they learn to feel sorry for themselves.
If children live with ridicule, they learn to feel shy.
If children live with jealousy, they learn to feel envy.
If children live with shame, they learn to feel guilty.
If children live with encouragement, they learn confidence.
If children live with tolerance, they learn patience.
If children live with praise, they learn appreciation.
If children live with acceptance, they learn to love.
If children live with approval, they learn to like themselves.
If children live with recognition, they learn it is good to have a goal.
If children live with sharing, they learn generosity.
If children live with honesty, they learn truthfulness.
If children live with fairness, they learn justice.
If children live with kindness and consideration, they learn respect.
If children live with security, they learn to have faith in themselves and in those about them.
If children live with friendliness, they learn the world is a nice place in which to live.

If any parent treats their child with disrespect, abuse, etc., etc., from birth to adulthood, then yes, I would agree that the results will probably be unconscionable. However, nothing I spoke about was in that context.

RE: Punishment:

Again, from my own personal experience with my child, and children close to me...when you consistently show a child you love them, are there for them, fulfilling both their physical, as well as emotional needs...when you exhibit the kind of behavior that your child is being taught, so your child sees you practice what you preach...when you raise your child with the intent of winding up with a loving, compassionate, bright, and responsible adult, a few rounds of punishment will not bring about your assertions.

When my daughter was in fifth grade (10 years old), she stayed home from school - supposedly sick with a cold. At some point that morning, I called to check up on her...make sure she was doing okay, didn't need anything, etc. No answer. I called back a couple minutes later...no answer! I freaked. I drove home from work, walked in the house and saw a tv tray set up in front of the television, with a half eaten bowl of cereal on it...tv running...no daughter anywhere in the house...I freaked even more. The first thing that ran through my head was that she'd been kidnapped!

I ran to the see the landlord, who happened to be outside doing something in the yard, and asked if he'd seen her. He said yes, that she had gone a few doors down to a friends house (apparently not sick at all, and having cooked up the whole thing just to stay home and play). I went to the house, knocked on the door, and when I saw her I freaked again, but this time mostly from relief, and a release of my fears. Yanking her home, I proceeded to take her upstairs...yelling all the while...and I spanked her with a belt...three times. I made her get dressed, drove her to school, marched her into the administration office and proceeded to ask..."What do you do to kids who are found playing hooky?" She was embarrassed, to say the least, and while the staff assured me they would make her work in the cafeteria, or something like that, and did NOT...at least my daughter knew I was probably as angry as I could ever get.

That night when we both returned home, I sat down and explained to her 1)why I was so angry, 2) how I'd lost trust in her, and 3) what she had to do to earn back that trust. She knew that my anger was directed at what she had done, and why. She knew I still loved her, and that aside from the trust issue, my feelings wouldn't change toward her. She understood why I had done what I had done, and wasn't angry at me at all. For several days thereafter, her escapade was the source of several conversations.

I also apologized for swatting her with the belt, but explained my emotions were totally raw from the fear that she had been kidnapped, and that even worse could have been done to her. She was old enough...she understood thoroughly. She was never truant again, with a couple exceptions (senior ditch day, etc.) that I knew about.

During her entire life, I can count on two hands the number of times I spanked her, including that one time with the belt (all other times were open handed), and most were nothing more than a couple swats, and most were on a diapered butt. Once she reached the age around five, she no longer received spankings. She received a few backhanded smacks when she got attitude and spoke to me with disrespect, and that was the extent of her corporal punishment. Beyond that she was normally sent to her bedroom, where she would read books, or listen to tapes, as her means of reflective solitude for something she had done that was inappropriate. Over the course of 14 or so years, that's pretty minuscule.

RE: Teenagers already feeling vulnerable, insecure and under pressure - not only from their parents, but their peers and the influence of popular media and societal expectations.

When you teach your children to be self confident, and give them a strong sense of self worth, as well as set a good example, you will find they deal very well with parental, peer, media, and societal pressure. This was never a problem in our home.

I don't advocate punishment, but I didn't back away from it when it was necessary. As an adult you have laws, and are punished when you break them...being a child is no different, and the sooner a child learns that, the quicker they'll make the transition into adulthood. I don't advocate corporal punishment, but when you're dealing with a small child, who isn't able to understand verbal reasoning, sometimes its the only effective way you can convince them that what they're doing is not acceptable. I do stress that as a parent you always need to let the child know that when you're not happy with their behavior, you do still love them, and its the behavior that is unacceptable...not them as a person.

Thats what worked for me and my daughter...it worked because I started teaching her young, was consistent with my words and actions, and whatever I asked of her, I exhibited in myself.

I love being a parent, and would do it all over again in a heartbeat - joy, frustration, good times, and bad, all for the joy I share with my daughter today. And I wouldn't change a thing about how I parented.

I do agree with your sentiments that a well raised child will most likely become a well adjusted adult.

However I disagree that children (and teenagers) should be subjected to physical force as a means of punishment or coercion.

If I was to spank you with a belt out of anger, or backhand you if I believed you were giving me attitude or disrespect, then I'd find myself in front of a judge having to explain what I felt it necessary to punish you.

In New Zealand the defence of "appropriate force" was reccently removed from legislation to prevent adults from using repeated acts of physical punishment against children and teenagers. Parents and caregivers can be prosecuted for hitting their children, although ultimately the discretion is at the hands of the Police whether or not to lay charges.

Although I was personally subjected to "a few rounds of punishment" with a wooden spoon, a leather belt, an alkathene pipe, and both parents feet and hands (open and closed) when I was growing up and being screamed and yelled at, I didn't turn out to be a maladjusted teenager or adult. But the potential was there.

My parents were merely repeating behavioral patterns they had learned from their parents. They believed they were behaving appopriately. And they saw nothing wrong in it at the time. I don't blame my parents for how they acted, but it is interesting to note that they do regret their actions now, wishing they could have handled things better without resorting to violence as a form of punishment.

Unfortunately a child is not a teenager. And a teenager is caught between moving from being a child dependent on their parents towards being and independent adult. Hormonal and biochemical changes that occur during adolescence do affect teenagers physically and psychologically - and the effect varies from individual to individual.

I tended to be the quiet one at high school, very intelligent, very sarcastic and somewhat reserved.

My other brother on the other hand was fascinated with the opposite sex. He chased girls through high school and was a real charmer.

My youngest brother was the rebellious one. He did everything and anything he could to upset my parents and get into trouble at school. He even came to blows with my father, and the two of them stopped speaking for years.

Everyone has their individual experience of going through puberty and being a teenager. Sometimes everything goes fine, sometimes it doesn't. For most it's a mixture of the two.

If I break the law as an adult I don't expect to be beaten by the Police. A child should learn there are consequences for their actions, but physical violence shouldn't be the accepted norm. We lock away adults who "misbehave", and with a small child who doesn't understand verbal reasoning you can do the same thing - albiet you isolate them to their room and let them wail away and holler in frustration and futility.

People are always going to disagree on how to raise children and teenagers, and for me I don't believe any form of violence against children is acceptable.

But we are all entitled to our own opinions and thoughts, and I do thank you for sharing your experiences and knowledge.

:thumbsup James Hansard

Oh sure...any time ... you're quite welcome.

Thanks (and I mean it) - probably the most interesting conversation I've had on TAC for a while! :D

I am assuming, that because the mom was able to legally sell the car, that it was in her name....therefore, even if she had told the child it was "his" she still owned it....I am sorry, but if I own a car, and let my kid use it, and I found alcohol in the car, regardless of whose alcohol it was....my kid would most definitely be hoofing it until they could get their own car...and if after they had their own car, I found alcohol in the car....and they are still living under my roof......uh uh... if yer underaged, and living under my roof, you are going to follow my rules about stuff relating to safety and common sense, or you can go find another place to live....
I don't care how "uncool" it made me seem...sometimes being responsible means being uncool...and letting a child use a car that technically (legally) belongs to you...when you suspect them or their friends of underaged drinkin in that car....is totally irresponsible...period
I am quite sure hundreds of families who have had loved ones killed by drunk underaged kids would agree....what's possibly saving someones life compared with being a ilttle "uncool"?


ps...oh and while I am thinkina bout it...the parents of her sons friends, could sue her family and estate if there was an alcohol related incident in said car because her son or his friends were doing that...not to mention families of anyone else that might be hurt in a wreck..
Although I don't agree with the wording of the ad.... Iit smacks a little of "lets shame him to no end"...I do agree with her reasons for selling said car...and BOY lemme tell you...if I EVER found out that someone KNEW my child was riding around around inna car with alcohol...open or not...hers or someone elses in the car...and they didn't tell me...I think i would have to whoop up on their asses....you may let yer rugrats get away with crap that could possibly kill someone else...but as long as my daughter is living under my roof...she better not be doing that crap....

The legal end applies to not just minors either...lawsuits against the perpetrators families can happen and do quite often.......it's serious shit....I am not gonna have my house n stuff taken away cause my daughter decides to show poor judgement or her friends decide to show poor judgement.......anyways...that's my view

I still find it very interesting that the ones who agree with the mother, or have little against what she did, are the one's with kids, and the ones who find HUGE fault with her are the ones without.

Den;92421

I still find it very interesting that the ones who agree with the mother, or have little against what she did, are the one's with kids, and the ones who find HUGE fault with her are the ones without.

Well, for me, that is exactly true - I don't have children of my own (despite the constant protestations of my parents - being eldest son and all).

I have personally assisted in the raising and education children though the years, as well as worked extensively with youth offenders (which in New Zealand is anyone under the age of 17).

Amongst New Zealand M

ā

ori we have a traditional system of extended family based on Iwi (Tribe) Hapu (Sub-Tribe), and Wh

ā

nau (Immediate and Extended Family).

Children are considered to be precious gifts or taonga - and are the responsbility of the Parents to ensure they are cared for, protected, and nutured.

But the upbringing of children are also the responsibility of the Hapu and Iwi. Parents who were incapable of raising their children faced the possibility of intervention by the community and the uplifting of children to be placed with other caregivers who would effectively become the parents.

This was usually done in extreme circumstances - where the life or welfare of the child was at risk or the parents were a danger to themselves as well as their children (sadly through drug and alcohol abuse, domestic violence and a lifestyle supported by criminal activity).

Although not legally recognized in New Zealand law, the practise of Whāngai still occurs today, typically in conjuntion with governmental Social Services. The ideal of communal responsibility and obligation towards the raising of a child may be a difficult concept to grasp, but it is common amongst indigenious peoples of different cultures around the world.

Whāngai can be summarized as:

Ko te hunga e tipu ana ki raro i te maru o tana kuia, koroua, whānau ake rānei hi mea atawhai.

To take responsibility to feed, nurture and shelter a person, particularly a child.

My Mother, my Uncle Jim and my Uncle Walter were all taken from their birth parents and placed with my Grandmother and Grandfather as

Whāngai children in the 1950's.

One day, hopefully I will be given the opportunity to be a parent and a Father, but if I am given the honor and responsibilty of raising a

Whāngai child I would gladly accept.

No different from the culture I grew up with in Southern California. Caring for, protecting, nurturing, as well as instructing and guiding in life's rules, and responsibilities...not an unusual concept imo.

What? That's crazy talk!!!!

That's not unusual no, but the idea of the community - be it a urban suburb in Southern California or a Mountain tribe in the highlands of Papua New Guinea - taking an active role in ensuring the raising of all children in their area - isn't as common today as it was in the past.

Well, I'm a crazy kind of guy. Now where's that Certifiable certificate of mine... :lolly

I will say that the concept of communal child rearing is most emphatically not realized around here (Maryland suburbs). In fact, there are -strong- social mores with regard to interfering in any way with a child not your own. I find this very interesting because we live in a pretty 'liberal' area that I would think would go along with the 'it takes a village' ideal set. But boy, you do -not- say anything to someone else's kid around here.

I spent my early childhood in a pretty rural area of Virginia, and it was so different there. Any mom could yell at any kid to get out of the street and if kids were up to shenanigans, parents were going to be informed. And this was an area where most people espoused to the "pull yourself up by your bootstraps and take personal responsibility" philosophy.

Children were treated very differently in Southern Italy, where I lived from 7-11. It just wasn't a place where crimes against children took place. Lots of theft and almost third-world lawlessness, yes, but children were to the point of being spoiled. None of the Italian children in my neighborhood were expected to clean their own rooms or do household chores. When we would go out to eat we would see children everywhere running around the restaurant while their parents smiled and enjoyed their wine and conversation. It was just a different atmosphere in so many ways.