Women in Refrigerators

I think it's the biological aspect (as I'm sure you would have guessed of me), and, here in the US at least, cultural to a lesser extent.

I don't have much to add just yet, but in response to the other post, I'd like to say that if I had a daughter, I would certainly prefer her to read books with female main characters; strong (where applicable), self-sufficient female characters, not whiny simpering bimbos. I'd give her Nancy Drew before I gave her Hardy Boys, for example.

Obviously if you look at our culture it is one in which men are expected to protect the women. I think it is similar in that if you did have a female lead and you wanted her to go crazy - you wouldn't kill/rape her man you could do it to her kids because our culture is one in which many women are protective of the kids, and men protect those women. You see this often in movies. I'm not saying it makes it right.

Also demographics play a huge roll - it isn't fair to the women that like sci-fi and fantasy, but the largest following for those genres are men - further you get a lot of women that like to follow the dreamy manly man so it works well for each side - at least as far as sells go.

I always complain when I go home and my mom watches the lifetime channel. Every time there is some abusive horrible man that the woman is on the run from until she finally finds the perfect man that protects her and she falls in love. Every time. The entire channel paints men as abusive drunks that will track you down if you leave us. I'm not really offended of course, but its annoying to watch :P

I'm not saying any of that makes it right, but it makes it sell - and I guess looking at it it is more pervasive then I would have ever realized since I don't notice this naturally.

I don't read or watch much outside of the dork (sci-fi fantasy) so I can't comment too much there, but I'll attempt to discuss some things I've read or watched recently and then see how they do as I go with it.

Wheel of Time - you've seen my bitches on the other board, and I can't go into too much detail without giving away things. This "theme" that you are discussing is amplified - the author seems to be tackling it head on, and there are time I hope main character die horrible deaths. I think you should read them some just so we can talk about that part :) They're good besides that anyway.

Battlestar Galactica - I was thinking about your post - and I think this show does a good job. The women aren't portrayed as weak, and hardly need protected. It isn't the opposite either where you see the female being the tomboy badass just to prove themselves. It has a good mix of strong female rolls that are both strong and feminine - and every mix in between. Star Buck is a little tom boyish, but not outside of what her character should/could be. I think Rosalynn is a fantastic leading female character - if that show were to have a lead.

Hrmn - its been awhile since I've read outside of Wheel of Time. It is also difficult because most books older than recent are obviously sexist driven because of the time they were written.

Song of Ice and Fire. There is so much going on its hard to point out - every character has flaws and issues. I think though there are some good female characters in this as well - though it might be slightly male dominated. Then again any book set in fantasy times are going to have more men as warriors than females simply because of traditional roles that were accurate to history. Some of the females obviously are caddy bitches, but so are some of the men :P My favorite character was Arya with Tyrion in 2nd.

It frustrates me a little when men say that the dork is mostly a guy thing because it seems that whenever something happens within the genre that men don't like, they blame it on women. Don't like that SciFi was changed to SyFy? Blame the female viewers this channel is trying to attract! Nevermind that they're marketing to young people in general - it's a stupid idea, so it must be woman kind's fault!

But, I rant. The whole point of WiF, though, was to illustrate that women aren't going to keep reading comics if you keep killing their favorite characters. But then we fall into a cyclical argument. Women are less interested in scifi/fantasy - Female characters keep getting killed/maimed/degraded/ignored. And around and around it goes. But the main reason it bothers me to hear that sci-fi is a guy thing is that women do take an interest in the dork. A women may well have been responsible for the sci fi genre (Hi Frankenstein) and we've been here all this time.

It's interesting that you bring up Battlestar Galactica. I agree, they did a great job in the re-make. They took a couple of characters and genderflipped them (yay Starbuck) and the show benefited from that re balancing.

Katee Sackhoff got hate mail. She got threats. People honest to god wished her personal harm because she dared to play a character that was originally written for a man. The actor who played Starbuck in the original series blasted her. To be fair, after only a few episodes she started getting apology mail :D. She is Starbuck, she's a hell of an actress playing a hell of a character. And yeah, Rosalynn is incredible.

I'm skeptical of the Wheel of Time, especially as it's unfinished and Robert Jordan died. Maybe I'll give the first one a try.

And as for Song of Ice and Fire - my favorite character is The Hound (see avatar). But after that comes Sansa.

I don't need my female characters to start out as superwomen. Sansa is gullible, easily manipulated, recklessly cruel, oblivious, terrified. She is everything that was a flaw in Ned - close minded, unyielding, and everything that is a flaw in Catlyn - prejudiced, stubborn, naive. But she is becoming something so much more - the good aspects of her parents, maybe with some of those flaws burned away in the crucible the author has placed her in. George RR Martin is doing a fantastic 'two steps forward one step back' thing with her character. I hope she survives; one day I really think she will be a force to be reckoned with.

Of course, I don't mind if a female character starts off as "strong (where applicable), self-sufficient....not whiny simpering bimbos" It's annoying when it's overdone, is all. And I like a character that grows and changes, makes mistakes and is wrong sometimes, rather than a constant rock. I like some nuance and shading. And then, absolutely, bring on the awesome.

Well, that was if I had a daughter. Maybe I'm underestimating, or forgetting how I myself was back then, but I don't think my hypothetical daughter would understand or appreciate nuance until she was around highschool-level. And I don't think Nancy Drew (to use my example again) is any type of superwoman. She's just more clever than most. And brave! And apparently has a knack for getting into trouble. Okay, maybe not the best role model.

It's funny to see you guys talk so highly of BSG. I haven't even been interested in watching the series, because of the photos I've seen of it. I would have assumed the exact opposite was taking place.

Some of my favorite female characters are from the last few books in the Dune series. Odrade is awesome. Coincidentally, Miles Teg is quite possibly my favorite character not only in the entire series, but my favorite superhuman character altogether. 'Chapterhouse Dune' is just such an great book.

Re: Wheel of Time - I'm almost done with book #928, the first one not written by Jordan, and you can barely tell it wasn't written by him. The new author, Brandon Sanderson (I like the name), states that he isn't trying to imitate Jordan, but he pretty much failed in that regard. Unless you're some sort of Literature professor, you'd probably never notice until someone told you. The books are all great anyhow, even if the female characters can be EXTREMELY ANNOYING AT ALL TIMES. As the series progresses, they mature, and they get *much* cooler.

I'm not sure if the first bit was directed at something I said or just in general. At any rate I never said dork/sci-fi/fantasy was a guy thing (I dont' think I didn't reread my lengthy post), but I said from a demographic standpoint it had more male followers - it is a pretty big distinction. That isn't downplaying the female followers so much as stating a fact. There ARE more men interested in the genre(s). I don't think that makes it a guy thing. I've never heard complaints blaming women when things change, but I don't doubt you one bit just knowing how people are. I wasn't even sure if scifi channel was the same as syfy lol. The truth is I wish more girls got into the stuff - and it seems like that is slowly happening.

I'm not a huge comic fan so I guess I can't comment too much on any of that. I do know what you mean about overdoing the strong part. Not only do they overdo it - they then put the woman in a skimpy outfit (often armor that doesn't cover anything vital except a nipple). My GF plays Soul Caliber IV with me and she's always commenting about how ridiculous the outfits are - and they are.

BSG - Pharren get on it. I never watched the originals - I remember hearing that Starbuck was originally a male character and I can't even picture it because the current Starbuck is so good, and they've done things with the story for her that wouldn't be possible for a male character (I'm only on season 3 so don't say too much).

I do think the Sansa bit is interesting. She was my least favorite - in fact I often hoped she would die. I'll have to reread it now to see exactly why, but she threw her family under the bus and I never forgived her for that. I also cannot stand sorority valley girl types, and Sansa came across as a medieval sorority girl to me. I guess that makes her realistic, but I cannot stand shallow materialistic people, and she was the very definition. I guess I'm saying she was well written, but I considered her a bad guy.

Pharren, my first instinct was to agree with you that kids that age (middle school) don't yet grasp the sort of nuance I was talking about; I was mostly talking about what I personally prefer. But then I started thinking about my kid's favorite books and realized that she tends to prefer the stories where the main character suffers and grows. A Little Princess, her favorite book, is about a little girl who goes from wealth to gut-wrenching poverty, then encounters a mysterious beneficiary who turns her life around again - but not before she learns that being a princess is about being good and kind no matter what your circumstances. It's a very common theme, a British tradition, and one very well loved. I think these kinds of stories might actually be an important part of development - a way for kids to work out their own feelings of powerlessness, frustration, hopelessness. I think back, and while there was a lot of nuance that I understand now that I didn't understand then, I was always most captivated by stories where the MC suffered. Maybe I'm just a heartless bastard though :X.

I don't know if my kid would like Nancy Drew because I never read those books when I was little. I think I read three or four boxcar children novels, decided that mystery wasn't for me, and gave up on the genre. It's still not my favorite thing.

Also, watch BSG.

Vulash - didn't mean to overstate your position at all. I really was just doing a little rant before I dug into replying, getting stuff off my chest :). I don't know that I agree with your idea of the ratio of men to women interested in sci-fi, but there are so many ways of breaking those numbers down that it really is entirely a matter of perception. For example, I'm part of a RL book club. Yes, I actually leave the house once a month to discuss books! So I mentioned liking science fiction, and the reaction I got from one of the other ladies was freakin' priceless - a shrill "I do NOT like science fiction."

Then she recommended The Time Traveler's Wife.

The same thing happens with guys - a coworker of mine kind of poopoo'ed my nerdiness, saying he wasn't into Star Wars Trek (his words) or Lord of the Hobbits. But he loved the movie Minority Report and is reading Philip K. Dick at lunch.

I do think it would be a shame for this genre to split into 'chick sci fi' and 'dude sci fi'. I wonder where that's headed? And then some elitists don't want to be associated with sci fi at all. So definitions get muddy, and I don't think it's that simple to get a clear picture of who's interested in the dork. With that in mind, marketing people should cast a nice wide net, which I think they really are trying to do.

*thinks* Most people I talk to hate Sansa. Most people love the Hound. Lemmie break this down, bear with me here because I'm not entirely sure what my point is :D.

The Hound is brutal, cruel, bitter, and hideous. He rides down a butcher boy and kills him - in fact he'll kill anyone he is ordered to. He likens himself to a dog - loyal, predicable, fierce. Throughout the book, he shows the occasional soft spot; his love of Sansa, his fear of fire. But he always takes that step back, too.

Sansa is naive and self centered. She cares about dressing nicely and meeting the right sorts of people, and is embarrassed by her more unruly sister. Her understanding of the world is filtered through romantic stories. She makes terrible errors in judgment - once in the hope of saving her father from disgrace, and once to avoid being torn away from the prince she believed she loved (she was 12). When she is held prisoner and her father put to death, she forgets her sister and focuses on survival. Sometimes she is incredibly brave and self sacrificing. But she never fails to take that step back, either in thought or deed. She sees herself as a deer surrounded by lions - gentle, frightened, and about a breath from being devoured.

And yet the Hound is loved, and Sansa hated. Why? They are both nasty and small in their own ways, their appearances both work against them, they both have siblings that drag them down (Sansa's wolf was killed because of Arya's temper - even if all of Sansa's other grievances are mere petty squabbles, killing Lady was a big freakin deal). Their worse nature plagues them constantly and drags them down even more. It's strange to me, that one is thought of as a sort of grey hero, and the other (a 12 year old girl!) is a bad guy.

I guess to me Sansa grew up in a family that cared and loved for her, and she threw all of them under the bus when push came to shove. She continually overlooked one of the most vicious people in the books' bad side because she wanted him to be a prince, and it cost lives. The hound isn't one of my favorite characters, and I do see him as a bad guy. I do sort of like the character because he makes a good bad guy - he is a bad guy with flashes of feeling - he's had a horrible life, and he didn't come through well. Sansa on the other hand is whiny, complains, self centered, and she was horrible to Arya. I would also argue that Arya's temper didn't kill the wolf, but the queen and Geofreys asshole nature did. Arya was an even younger kid that justifiably struck out, but her actions were not directly connected to Lady being killed - that falls squarely one the shoulder of those that killed her as an act of vengeance.

Pharren watch BSG.

I guess if you want to expand the definitions of sci-fi/fantasy I have no problem with that, but you did specifically mention comics and that IS a male dominated genre - so are RPGs, video games, etc. It's changing rapidly though and I think that is a good thing.

It's midnight - if my last response was horrible forgive me and I'll give a better one tomorrow when I can think straight. I just played 11 hours of D&D (yea I'm a dork). No women were present :P Though I will say I was helping write one in the area (should go to publication soon) and we actually had a few female players - it was a first for me.

Well maybe I was a little hard on Sansa but I just hated her as a character. I guess to me the difference in her and the Hound are personalities. Sure, they both are similar from a literary standpoint,but they have completely different personalities. I just can't take whiney self centered sorority girl personalities and she fit that for me. The Hound was a badass - an evil one, but a badass. Then again I never considered him one of my favorite characters either so maybe that is the issue.

Crap, thanks for the bump; I missed the last updates, distracted by turn-ins. I'm either all over the place or nowhere at all I guess.

Like I said, I'm not entirely sure where I was going with comparing The Hound to Sansa - maybe the whole thing is too much of a stretch. And I did realize I was misremembering with Arya - she and Jon scared her wolf away before Cersi demanded that a wolf be killed.

I really hope there's some redemption in store for Sansa and would be really disappointed if she died before her character arc was complete. She certainly does have a lot to atone for, no question. I'm not too hard on her for selling her family out - it really was an accident, I believe. I remember being really frustrated with Ned, actually - if he had just taken the time to explain things to her things would have gone so much differently. I do, however, think that she needs to redeem herself for allowing the singer to be punished for Littlefinger's crime. It did seem that at the end of the last book she was starting to get her moral courage back, but she really is in a horrific situation.

Anyway, I guess my whole point in bringing up Sansa as a favorite character is that she is decidedly feminine, and I think it's kind of neat that she's really her own controversial character without having to co-op some skill from the boys. Many female characters view being a woman as a handicap to surpass - and, I mean, you go girl, and all, if you're a woman trying to break into a man's world, taking on what is traditionally a man's role. Really, that's great, but it's also kind of nice to see a girl getting on in the world by being a girl. And it's interesting to me how very few people respond positively to seeing that, and I wonder why that is.

I mean, you see this cliche all the time, and this really bothers me: A male character is awesome at something, and carries on being awesome, but then some jackass writer decides that they should bring in a female antagonist who bests him at everything he does until passionate makeouts ensue. Why can't they each just be awesome in their own way?

Either that, or a girly girl is punished severely for being that way. Like Susan from the Narnia books, or Lavender in Harry Potter. Or any of the girls in Harry Potter, at one point or another, really.

Not that George RR Martin does this, it's just something I see a lot in fantasy. Anyway, I'm rambling again, sorry.

Moving on - any women invited to this D&D game? :P But seriously, in my experience (which I'll admit is limited) these tabletop RPGs are a mixed bag. When I was a kid it was mostly boys (and one unfortunate looking girl, but I don't like to talk about that) but as I got older I saw more and more girls. No idea why that is, but I think it's the same for other gaming as well. Not sure about things like comics.

I don't know that I want to expand the definition of sci-fi/fantasy; I just feel like it goes beyond liking Star Trek and/or Lord of the Rings. I consider myself a sci-fi geek, but I'm not a huge Dr. Who fan and honestly I haven't watched much Star Trek. I liked the Star Wars movies I saw as a kid, but thought the newer movies were horrible. So...I don't know, maybe I do want to be more inclusive in defining the dork. I just feel like for a long time the dork was defined as being something boys liked and girls didn't, so if girls liked it, it wasn't -really- sci-fi. Or there was a 'for girls' added to the end. If that makes sense.

But hey - we just did a big ol' sci fi event here at TAC, and look at all the amazing female artists, writers, and gamers we have just on this board (not to put the menfolk on the sideline or anything, <3 you guys too). We're all a bunch of dorks of all genders, holding hands in harmony and shit. I look around and I feel pretty good about the girl dork population. My book club, which in spite of the member I mentioned earlier actually reads a fair bit of geeky stuff, is nearly all women. Literally, one dude shows up once in a while. I found a pretty even split at the last nerd movie I went to the premier of (Watchman...yeah, I don't get out much). So yeah, I like our odds, and I agree that from a marketing standpoint things are looking up.

But I've been kicking things around, and I kind of realized something about marketing - I'm impossible to please. I think they almost always get it wrong when they market stuff to women. "I know, we'll get girls to buy this product by making it pink!" "Women like to watch stories about abusive men!" (Seriously, Lifetime, what the hell?). "I know, let's put a bunch of 'relationship drama' into our story to get women interested!"

So, okay, I think they get marketing to women wrong. But then when they market to men I'm all WTF I WILL NOT BE IGNORED. And really, it's just as moronic. "Lets have a bunch of explosions! Men like when things go boom!" "Men like appalling racial humor, let's do some of that!" "I know, we'll distract the men with BOOBIES!"

Well. Maybe boobies go in the middle of the Venn Diagram, but you dig what I'm saying?

I will admit that Sansa's character was really developing towards the end, and I also hope she lives long enough for that to continue. Maybe she'll cut off Littlefingers wanger.

We definitely invite girls to play, but honestly there is little interest from most. I've seen more here in Flagstaff than previously in West Virginia - then again the gaming groups have been much better in general - partially I believe because it is an older crowd. We've had a few girls show up to the general invites for the game we were playtesting, but that is over. (one was a biology professor from Australia - how cool is that?) Both current groups are entirely male - and one we are looking for another player. To be quite honest with the way girls react when you mention you play its difficult to ever get around to inviting them - although as I've gotten older I quite honestly don't care one bit and talk about it freely. There was one girl that wanted to learn in my department but she was on exchange from Oregon and left before it ever happened. I think now I'm rambling.

I think for the most part I don't disagree with you about much, but it was interesting to finally get to hear what you meant because a lot of it would never have crossed my mind. It is a little odd defending my position about it being a male dominated genre on a board that is dominated by females that are into sci-fi/fantasy.

To touch on your marketing comments. If you look at a game like WoW - and I'm about to stereotype but trust me I know there are many exceptions - you'll see a bit of that there. Many of the men are drawn in by the strategy and tactics involved in advancing their character, and defeating huge creatures. We're also drawn in by the size and ferocity of the creatures we defeat. Many of the women are drawn in by the social aspects of the game, the relationships (look at the number of wives that cyber everyone they see), and the aesthetics of building up their characters. Now again obviously I'm drawing lines over areas that are mucky in reality, and there are thousands of exceptions, but how while you'll see plenty of female guild leaders how many female raid leaders do you see? Most guilds with female's as guild leaders have a male running the tactics while guilds with male guild leaders either have another male running their tactics or they step into that role themselves. I'm not saying any of this is bad, but it touches a little on the marketing areas you were mentioning. WoW successfully markets to both sexes (and so did EQ).

I just wrote that instead of the paper I'm supposed to be working on. Distraction is fun.

Yeah I was thinking of bringing up WoW and EQ but thought it would be tricky to get a handle on, just because of all the gender-masking going on, lol. But yeah, I don't disagree. Well, except that men care just as much or more about the aesthetics thing, ime. God, remember when LoY came out with the armor dye, -everyone- went nuts with that stuff. And I have vague objections to the cyber thing, but honestly I haven't a clue about that stuff.

Have you ever read the Pern books?

Edit: Ack, don't mean to interfere with important stuff! I just can't sleep :X

I was hoping for interference :P I guess maybe the cyber stuff wasn't fair - I don't know a lot firsthand as I didn't typically associate with people into that. There were a few.....instances....of girls trying to "latch on" but nothing serious. I'm sure guys are just as bad as I think about it. I've just heard so many stories now about married women running off - its a bit sickening. I guess no more so then guys that make female characters to cyber other guys while pretending to be female.

I haven't read the Pern books - I'm constantly told to.

Well, actually maybe women are more sexually aggressive online. I don't know, guys never ever bothered me, but I hear about guys having to beat them off with a stick (HAHA PUN).

Pern is great for female characters who are awesome in their own right. I wouldn't read more than the first four books, though - after that there are prequels and shit, but imo they start to suck. In some ways the books are a little old fashioned, but for the most part they are a remarkably modern take on sexual politics, gender roles, and power. They were written in the 50s. But really, all that is secondary to really cool dragons :D. I would call them sci-fi books, though.

I'll check it out - I'm on book 6 of the wheel of time and there are about 80 left. I've been so busy I can't read quickly anyway. It took me from August until last week to finish book 5.

Evenstarr - haha - I think that was her name. So yea - just thought of another.

I never had a huge issue, but I've told after the fact that I was kind an asshole when I was raid leading so maybe that kept them away - not that I mind.

EDIT: If you ever do pick those up - we're reopening this thread ;) I really think you should :D

I want to bring up one other thing since we're being a bit open with regards to sex in sci-fi/fantasy. Lets talk about the signatures and art of those on this board. I think there is a lot of fantastic art here, but you will notice a propensity towards women with huge boobs and extremely skimpy outfits - and it is mostly by female artists. I've even seen a couple signatures topless.

You know, I've always found it interesting that women claim things like 'we want to see -real- women on magazine covers and such (because if you're thin, you're not 'real' *eyeroll)', but Victoria's Secret rakes in the dough with their sexed up advertisements aimed at women. And around here, yeah, we love us some beefcake, but it's mostly women, and mostly sexy women, that get drawn. I honestly can't explain it, but maybe I have some theories.

It makes a girl feel sexy and powerful to take a sexy woman as her avatar. Maybe there's some sort of hawtness transfer at work there.

I'm not so fussed about it anymore, but when I first got into the internet it was really important to me to be perceived of as a girl, and frankly if people thought I was a cute girl that was nice too. I have a traditionally boy's name and do a lot of traditionally boy's hobbies (though I don't consider myself a tomboy by any stretch). Online, I wanted to obviously be thought of as a girl. On a lot of message boards, if you have a gender-neutral name they just assume you're a guy. Anyway, all this is a long way of saying that maybe we're just rallying up the girly.

Um...hawt chicks are hawt. They're fun to look at, for all genders/orientations. Even some gay guys I know still appreciate a nice rack. At the same time...I don't know how to articulate this very well...there's something non-threatening with a sexy woman, for other women. Seeing an image of a sexy woman makes us feel sexier.

Funny that you mention that, though, because I was just thinking about how this latest project pulled me out of my comfort zone. I've kind of become used to producing a certain aesthetic in the girls that I draw - leggy and lean, little in the middle - and drawing a curvy girl was actually really tricky. I was trying to have her wearing a freakin' harness *laughs*. But it did get me thinking on how there wasn't a lot of diversity in body types for your basic action heroine - maybe they just couldn't buckle the big-boobed girl's parachute around her chest!

Well it wasn't a critique by any means, but it is a bit ironic when some complain when male artists draw women like that, or even in advertising, and then when we let our women out of the kitchen to do some art they produce similar results (a joke - obviously).

You did make a good point about automatically assuming someone is a male if the name is gender neutral. I am without a doubt guilty of this.

I only had a problem with one or two (theoretical) females in online games - I had a lot more in AOL/IRC. But that is nothing compared to what I was subjected to when I made my first female character. I find it repulsive, and not just because I'm straight and having a guy hit on me wigs me out a little. It's really quite pathetic (and, for me at least, disturbing in the extreme) the things men will do/say to get... to get what? To get letters typed at them on their computer monitor? Maybe an emote if they're lucky? I just can not under any circumstances relate to this behavior as a man, nor can I begin to comprehend the motivation for it. It's a video game. That "girl" probably isn't even female. :confused:


It's the same with men, I'm sure. That's why most of my MMO characters are gnomes, and my mafia characters are decidedly non-superhero-esque. I guess I'm just a rebel at heart. Or I'm trying to deflate my own ego.

Alright, so none of this had anything to do with the original topic at hand. DEAL WITH IT!