Does the duckface actually 'work'?

There is a distinction that I think you are missing Verileah, but I might have to pull a Pharren and type it out later because I'm late - at least in regards to type of person that the duckface makes me assume that girl is.

I don't necessarily think "easy". I automatically think "airheaded bimbo" or at least "product of her environment" meaning she succumbs to societal pressures to project a facade of airheaded bimboness (and also play the role of the fairy princess thing we talked about earlier somewhere else). Can't judge a book buy its cover, but... it's real easy to judge a book by its cover anyways.

Ok let me explain now that I have some time.

We've slowly gotten off topic and are now talking about types of girls I wasn't originally speaking about. I'm not talking at all about a woman's right to have as much sex as she wants.

I'm talking about, as Pharren said, airheaded bimbos - who happen to be easy most of the time. I'll give you an example. I lived beside 4 girls for the past year and a half or two years. They were friendly to me - well most of them, but they fit exactly what I'm talking about - what I call the sorority girl type (though they weren't, technically). When I would smoke I could hear their conversations. They were not deep people. They didn't think about things, they didn't do anything interesting. They just gossiped, partied, and brought home boys. Those things completely defined them. Some girls throw in fashion, but these didn't even do that. Two frat guys knocked on their door one night asking for the sluttiest one - her friend (who had a boyfriend) answered and without even knowing who they were "she's not here, but hi - I'm soandso and you can come in and hang out with me". Going through school you see this type of person all the time - they're very shallow, and all they do it gossip about fashion and who doesn't have it, boys, and partying - then they try to flirt to get good grades, or to get guys to help them because they're too dumb and/or motivated to do any actual schoolwork. THESE are the girls spearheading this duckface campaign. Think of the Jersey Shore girls - THAT is who I'm talking about. I threw in the easy thing as a way of explaining why they might receive more messages - it doesn't matter if they are or not - the dumb guys that also fit my mold (We're mostly talking girls because of the duckface thing, but there are the stereotypical shallow guys with no depth as well I can't stand - mostly frat boys) has the perception that this is the case. I would even argue that these girls aren't predatory so much as trying to flaunt the fact that they are prey so guys will come after them - all of them, both sexes, thrive on "game". It's sickening. Anytime in the past I was interested in a girl if she started playing games, or that stupid pretend not to like you but secretly do crap, I just stopped - I have zero interest in being with someone that finds it entertaining to toy with me, or that can't just be honest with me from the beginning. That is part of the reason Krista and I do so well together - she never plays games with me she just says what she means.

The type of girl that you've been talking about, Verileah, is more like a Samantha from Sex in the City (omg he just didn't). She's a predator, and constantly having sex with men on the show (I don't really watch it, but I've seen enough to get the premise), but she is not even close to fitting the mold/person I'm talking about above - and isn't someone that would be as easily labeled a slut anymore. Some, maybe - in the past yes, but that is slowly dying out.

There HAS to be some limit - wanting sex is fine, but society can't break down to stopping to fuck every person right in the street that you find attractive. There has to be a line.

Also - I really do disagree with the cleavage vs abs thing. The girl may not cut her face out of the picture, but she is going to take it from some weird angle to make it look like she is thinner than she is, and to hide any bad features - and she's potentially wearing a pushup or padded bra to further emphasize her boobs. How is that deception ok, but some guy showing his abs not? I don't know why they cut the head out of the picture - I find the whole thing weird, but I don't see one being douchebaggery and the other not. Actually, I kind of think both are. I'm not talking about a normal shot that happens to show cleavage, but doing it on purpose while hiding the rest of you...eh - I don't see the difference.

That's why I tried (and failed, I think) to make a distinction between 30+ women showing some (incidental, or as an accessory almost) cleavage in their profile pictures, and the "myspace shot" which is what you describe. I was more finding the first empowering, the second seems more equivalent to the ab shot.

Not sure if I'm dialing back my position or clarifying - I'm not trying to be a moving target or otherwise dishonest, the whole thought process is just a work in progress.

*thinks* I think that I have a hard time getting around the loaded words (easy, bimbo, etc) to your points - so I'm glad you're obviously putting some time into clarifying and defining this stuff. I've only seen a little bit of Sex in the City, but I found your explanation helpful nonetheless. I would like to throw out there that they have a derogatory word for Samantha, too - cougar. Why there are so many and varied derogatory words to describe women and so few to describe men is probably fodder for another thread, another time.

As a complete aside, I am always so glad to hear that you are in such a healthy, happy relationship. You say the nicest things about Krista :).

Pharren, I'm sure that guys still pressure girls to have sex, but I believe in recent years they have become more wary of coming on too strong. I also believe that girls (and boys for that matter, but we're talking about girls) are strongly influenced by their peer relationships with other girls. A girl seeks her friend's approval when she dates a guy, and friends will often be consulted along the way.

It reminds me of this friend of mine who was trying to write from the point of view of an awkward teenage girl. He wrote about how the boys were mean to her, her crush ignored her, her father didn't approve, her self esteem was in the toilet, but I told him he was missing something essential if he didn't include the fact that she would almost certainly care very much what the -girls- thought of her. That not fitting in and being accepted by other girls was a major part of the story for this character. That's why, when I started this thread, I talked about the duckface being about female bonding - these girls are doing what their friends are doing. Oftentimes you will see photos of a whole group of girls, all making that face. Other girls are a -huge- part of the story.

I don't think most people consider cougar derogatory necessarily, and on that point - an older man that sleeps around with younger women (which is common, I admit) gets a pretty nasty perception thrown at him as well from anyone outside of the frat boy crowd. I think cougar is less derogatory than old perv.

Also - I'm not sure why us using the terms we've used bothers you since you started out talking about douchebags (a term generally applied to the male group I've previously described). it's just easier to use the terms that exist then to try to define them every time

I'm not understanding what you mean by "empowering", at all.

I'm using loaded words because they facilitate communication. I can say "airheaded bimbo" and I'm pretty sure you know exactly what I'm talking about. I don't quite see why that is presenting a problem for you. Is it because you're automatically taking offense at the terms? They are just words. The meaning I intend to convey with them is irrelevant, in practice; the meaning you derive from them is all that matters. Try and reverse that, and see the meaning I am trying to convey. Yes, I mostly intend for them to assume their offensive meanings (not to you!), because that is how I automatically percieve those women to be. But they are just pictures. Do they intend to present themselves as airheaded bimbos? Probably not, though I'm sure some do. And so I have to look beyond my own assumptions to see the meaning they are trying to convey, if there is one. Perhaps, in some cases, it is as you say, and simply a matter of "when in Rome".

I can't help my automatic reaction to those pictures. I'm judging the book by its cover. If I want to see what's really inside, I have to look beyond the cover. I understand that. Regardless, first impressions are the most important, and if someone wants a duckfaced bimbo shot for their first impression, I feel I am safe in the assumption that they aren't worth my time. ;) Chances are high that we simply wouldn't connect on any level other than possibly a physical one.

Incidentally, the meaning I am trying to convey when I say "airheaded bimbo" was described pretty accurately by Vulash above, but there's also an aspect of Kim Kardashian meets Paris Hilton meets Pamela Anderson meets Miss Teen USA South Carolina 2007.

EDIT: Vulash beat me to the "loaded words" thing, damn him.

PS: I swear we aren't ganging up on you. It's just that you're wrong, since you're a girl, and we, being men, are therefore right.

;) ;) ;) ;)




:hide






PPS: I'm not even sure we are disagreeing on anything yet, I just felt like reviving the Battle of the Sexes from the Mafia game for a minute.

I'm sexy too Roz!!!
And check out the airheaded bimbo with me!!
[ATTACH=CONFIG]318[/ATTACH]

Pfft... that's not duckface.

THIS is duckface.

looks like she has a big chaw of redman chewing tobacco in her mouth

Kelefane - ew :(.

I think I've been pretty consistent in my application of the term douchebag to both genders :D. But, I take your point, really. Those sorts of words do facilitate communication, but I think sometimes they can get in their own way. I agree it's easier to just use the damn words everyone knows instead of getting entrenched in a semantics discussion, which is why I've expressed my appreciation to both of you for being willing to answer questions and define terms. I think it's interesting to examine these words, especially where we find differences in our perceptions.

I'm sorry I wasn't clear about the loaded words thing. I'm not taking offense. I appreciate that you guys are qualifying (and qualifying again, and answering my questions). I know it's easier to just use the words, I'm not bothered by anything. When I said that I was having trouble getting around the loaded language, I meant that I wanted to really understand what was going through a guy's mind when he looked at a duckface picture and decided the girl wasn't worth their time, and the namecalling wasn't getting me there, but the explanations were helpful in making your point. Really all I wanted to say was thanks for bothering to clarify, your post answered my questions, here's why I took a while to get there, here's where I might still have minor hangups but for the most part, fair enough. I don't mean to belabor the point, I thought we were having an interesting conversation jumping merrily from topic to topic. I'm not interested in a battle of the sexes, if for no other reason than because I have a headache from too much duckfaced screeching going on around me all evening. I'm really really really not even a little interested in picking a fight. I'll happily drop the probing and move on to other things if anyone is interested, like for example the other discussion we were having about whether peers or boys are the source of pressure for girls to have sex (if that pressure even exists, which is still up in the air).

Or we could just make fun of some silly internet photos and leave it at that.

Now I am off to watch women's softball and not make -any assumptions- about the players!

(Actually these girls are pretty hot and very girly, in spite of the fact that any one of them could crush me with their well-muscled pinky finger).

I thought I did a neat thing there. The paragraph doesn't actually say much of anything, and could probably have been written with 2/3 less words, but it was a fun idea. Either it didn't work, or I am just way too easily amused by my own antics.

Anyhow, yeah, um... you say you aren't taking offense, but that you'll still have minor hangups on the loaded words. How come? I want them to mean exactly what you probably think they mean, with all the negative connotations. I'm calling them airheaded bimbos. I'm sure some of them are nice girls, but I'm sure some racists or other bigots are nice, too, and I still don't want to get to know them. Perhaps it's my loss. It's a loss I'm comfortable with. When I used AOL, I wouldn't respond to people who had random numbers after their name.

I'm sure we've all done stupid things to look cool, blend in, impress our friends, attract lovers, or whatever. We look back and wonder how we could have been so foolish, maybe feel embarassed, and then probably turn around and do another dumb thing. I'm not holding the pictures against them. But if that's how they wish to represent themselves, then I wish to represet myself with a closed door, or maybe an empty room. If they remove the silly duckface pictures, circumstances might change.

The pictures "work" on an online dating site where I would wager most people aren't really looking for a meaningful relationship, and even there, they only work for generating interest. According to their statistics on the number of conversations held after the initial contact, they're pretty terrible at maintaining interest. So, on a site where most people aren't looking for anything long-term, these duckface pics are unsuccessful at creating anything long-term. Match made in heaven?

Actually, about the long-term thing, I wonder how many people who use that site truly are looking for a long-term relationship. The number probably goes up proportionately with age.

I'd like to see a study - the same studies, actually - done on the same people studied here, after changing their photo to something else. Would the ex-duckfacers be more successful in maintaining interest? Or is it just that the duckfacers tend to be uninteresting people in the first place?

And you still haven't told me what you mean by saying that the cleavage shots for age 30+ women are "empowering". I suppose like your inability to get completely past the loaded terms, I have an inability to get completely past my impression of cleavage shots (not the incidental ones, like a picture of you at a wedding or something, wearing a dress) as exhibitionism/self-exploitation/objectification, and therefore have difficulty imagining them to be "empowering" in any way other than granting the power to draw men's eyes to that region and spark their libido. An explanation would be handy. ;)

Pressure: I suppose the two forms are completely different. Peer pressure is insidious and ever-present. Pressure from men is more forceful and direct. All I can think of is all the things I used to do to try and seduce a woman, and sometimes I would lay it on pretty thick. I'm not talking about grabbing a girl's ass and saying "gimme some", but still... I can't imagine that times have changed so drastically. There are plenty of subtle ways to pressure a girl into sex that are still far more foreceful (imo) than peer pressure, if only because they're more immediate, and usually involve using her own desire as leverage.

Still got more stuff to say about more stuff, but I want to hear about the "empowering" thing. Tell me what it means.

I have time this morning to talk about one question, so I'll try to answer your empowering question since you seem especially interested. Sorry I didn't talk about that before, didn't mean to ignore a point.

Have you ever seen the SNL commercial for 'Mom Jeans'? The commercial features women wearing ill-fitting, pouchy, badly cut jeans. The catchphrase is "I'm not a woman, I'm a mom" or something to that effect. It's a light jab at the idea in society that if you have kids, you can no longer see yourself as a sexual creature. I feel like there's a similar pressure after 30 for women, where if you show skin you're not 'dressing your age' and you should 'dress like a grown-up now'. Even moreso if you're a professional. So a woman over 30 showing cleavage in a photo to me says "fuck that shit, I'm still very much a sexual being. I'm a woman. I'm also a mom, a successful banker, an artist, whatever - established in life in a way I wasn't in my 20s. And that makes me -more- sexy and powerful, not less, so why should I diminish that aspect of myself because of my age or station in life? If anything, I should be enjoying my body and flaunting that shit."

I'm not a brain in a jar (though I played one in Mafia that one time). I like my body and all its many wonderful uses and methods of expression, and when I see other women rocking their bodies with self confidence and downright sexiness, I say rawr, you go girl. And in those moments when I'm not liking my body very much at all and confidence is a little low, it's is encouraging to see other women taking a little risk and having the balls to do something I'm too self-conscious to do. Interestingly enough, I think a lot of that self consciousness (self centeredness? Probably) seems to fade away in one's 30s...and that's when society starts telling us to cover up! That's just a crying shame, that when women finally get to a point where showing some skin is fun and daring and expressive, it's time to put 'em away.

So in conclusion, hooray for boobies, the end.

I see. Men have nothing analogous to cleavage-displaying articles of clothing, so this is kind of a foreign concept. The older a man gets while remaining sexually active, the better, per society. Sean Connery was how old last time he won Time magazine's "Sexiest Man Alive"? I guess this disparity is due to a few things:

- Older men are often physically incapable of having sex, whereas older women just need patience and lubrication (unless there is some aspect of aging in women that I don't know about - or want to). This reminds me of the abs vs cleavage thing, but swapping in "virility" as a virtue, which, from an evolutionary standpoint, it is.

- Men don't want their wives attracting more capable competition. This is a shame, because it deprives our daughters a role model for sexiness in their mother, and end up looking to women whose values may not match those of the household - oops! The parent is the most potentially powerful role model for a child and we throw it away... and then get angry when our daughters come home dressed in a manner we don't approve of. Not that such experimentation isn't important, but don't get mad when you didn't even try.

- There was more, but typing on the phone while working takes so damn long, I forgot. Maybe later.

Honestly, I don't see the pressure for women over 30 to no longer be sexy and I see a lot of women that don't follow that for sure. Maybe I'm just not around it as a male that doesn't hang out with large crowds of women in that age group. Typically, from my viewpoint, I see older women trying even harder because they feel like they've lost that.

Of course there's pressure to be 'a mom'. I'm 36 and it kills me. I don't wear sneakers going to the store, even though I'm wearing jeans (not mom jeans, thank you very much) because it's one more step closer to wearing sweat pants in public. If anything, Vulash is right, we're freaking out and still trying to fit the image of what we were 10 years ago. Oh my god, I was hot. I'll say it. I was - but then I had kids. My mother is 66 and doesn't leave the house without dressing up in something nice. That might have more to do with self respect, but it's gross to see women out there who look like shit when they go out and she knows it.

Do I still try and rock the sexy 'do? Of course. Do I instill self confidence in Catherine? I try. Will she dye her hair blue and go goth on me? Probably.

I think I was having trouble with the loaded words because of what they usually reflect about the speaker, in my experience. When a woman calls another woman a bimbo, frankly it often comes off as sour grapes because a more attractive women got your promotion/man/last pair of shoes at the store. When a man calls a woman a bimbo, it's often the same thing in the professional world especially. When a guy calls a girl 'easy', I get the feeling there's a little bitterness there, like a 'so easy she slept with me and all my friends, or she reminds me of the sort of girl who would do that' sort of thing. And I know you guys are very good people, good men, and you know I regard you both very highly (right?), and you are not the sort of guys to call women bimbos over sour grapes or whatever, so I'm wanting to get past my preconceptions of what people who call other people bimbos are really thinking. I got a little hung up and had questions. And I hope that isn't a hurtful way of thinking, but that's where I was coming from, and I'm glad we talked about it so that I could understand your perspective a little better.

But the easy thing started out as just me questioning why that word was used. Like:
"God, look at that guy lifting up his shirt and showing his abs. What a jackass."
"Why are you calling him a jackass when he's clearly in good shape? A jackass to me means a guy who sits on the couch and drinks beer in front of the TV all day. Shouldn't a guy have every right to work out and look good, anyway?"
"No, see, when I say jackass I mean like douchebag - like, a guy who is really into himself and showing off. You're thinking of someone like neighbor Bob, who runs every day with his shirt off, waving at the neighbors with his fine bare chest...anyway, I'm thinking of someone more like Gaston from Beauty and the Beast."

Also, yes, I am the type of person who will call people douchebags, judge a book by its cover, all that. I'm not claiming to be on some sort of moral high ground at all, just attempting to shed a little light on my thought processes.

Gah, want to clarify that I got hung up on understanding where you guys were actually coming from (which you then clarified right away, so we're good). I did not get hung up on giving you the benefit of the doubt in the first place, that was so automatic that I had trouble going back and examining the thought process.

More later.

On the pressure thing - I think we basically agree. Peer pressure is general, pressure from a single guy to a single girl is local.

Cougars - I'm willing to concede that the derogatory nature of the term cougars is debatable. As for the double standard, I see it and I don't defend it. I think this is what is happening as far as perception:
Older man seeking younger woman -> Older man is seeking sex
Younger man seeking older woman -> Younger man is seeking sex
Older woman seeking younger man -> Older woman is seeking sex
Younger woman seeking older man -> Younger woman is seeking money

I don't defend this perception either, but I do think it's prevalent. So, I guess the general idea is that people honestly perceive the two situations (OldMan+YoungLady, OldLady+YoungMan) as being very different, if you'll forgive me, exchanges, that cannot necessarily be compared.

I seriously think this is bullshit, mostly because, holy crap, relationships are -complicated- and can't be boiled down into their base elements quite so simply. I'm sure sex and love and status and money all get jumbled up into a huge clusterfuck in those sorts of relationships, but it's their clusterfuck and as long as no one is breaking the law or abusing, more power to them imo.

I'm trying to keep up with things - sorry if I am missing people's points, there are a lot of distractions right now :). Gimmie a little prod if I missed a question or you demand a response or whatever :).