I would actually like some feedback on the general roleplay threads. Would you guys like a new one at every segment. Say, a night 1 roleplay thread, and then in the morning (the morning for the characters) a day 2 roleplay thread, or would you like it all in one continuous thread? I know there are a lot of threads at the moment, and a lot of stickied stuff - we're going to try to clean that up a bit as well.
There are some issues brought up, especially a couple by Pharren, that aren't quite as easy to solve. We're still thinking about those, and we'd like to start small with this set of changes to see how much that fixes.
While from an idealistic standpoint I agree with the issue in his example 2, I'm not sure I want to enforce anything like that. To deny character's the chance to express concern or shock and horror would be to lose a major element of roleplaying - even if those characters aren't really shocked or feeling horror because they are the rat bastard doing the killing. It is really the only outlet they have to appear innocent since there is no real time direct dialogue, or OOC. If we ask them not to do any of that, then they would quickly be outted by those characters that could do that - or we'd have to ask no one to. I'm still trying to think this through though as it's a pretty valid issue.
If you guys have complaints on the changes, or issues we didn't address keep them coming here or in the other thread. If new issues pop up due the changes let us know as well - this feedback is good. Obviously, we aren't all going to agree about where these games should be going, but I think we'll find a good medium ground.
Round 3 rule changes
Some rules changes:
OOC thread: We're adding an OOC thread. We don't want people discussing clues, forming alliances, or really anything that will sway votes or skids in this thread. We'd really like that stuff to play out in roleplay. It's becoming obvious though that having a central place to communicate outside the bounds of the game would be nice.
Voting thread: We're just going to have you vote with a name now. Roleplaying the votes can be fun and dramatic, but it causes people some problems trying to rationalize their own vote through their character's eyes, or even why that particular character would be "voting". This way we can just create a mob mentality scene that plays out the end result within the game, without having to suspend each character's personal responsibility.
Timing: We're going to start adding times to kill scenes and clean up the issue with the timing of events and roleplay. This isn't something that will be easy to fix since we have people on various time zones, work schedules, and overall different posting schedules. So from now on we'll have times for the kill, and it's assume when the crowds show up everyone is present. Roleplaying in kill threads will all be assumed to be immediately after the kill scene in the vicinity of the scene. Each death and event will progress the timing in game for the characters. Events will either be spanning over several days (scavenger hunt), or short term evening type events. Roleplaying in those threads will be assumed to be during that event for short term, and during free time between major events for ones like the scavenger hunt. We'll also have the roleplaying thread that takes place at times in between these major events. I know that is wordy, but it should be pretty much common sense and hopefully give a little order to the timing of things.
Clues: This was discussed in the FAQ, but I wanted to reiterate to make sure we are all on the same page. Major roles write their own scenes, and we add to the narrative to make it flow. So, for example, the mafia is writing most of the hit scenes, and they are adding their own clues. Remember that the goal of this game is to stray from quite so much clue digging/mining and make it more about the narrative. If you consider past games of mafia people would find 10 false clues for every real one, and the clues themselves rarely become the key point of the game - instead they were a jumping off point that people ran with and rallied around. The narrative should serve as that point in this game with the clues assisting the process.
Vulash
15 years ago
Blackrabbit
15 years ago
I guess my concerns are, but moving away from the clue digging/mining and keeping a lot of it in the RP, I feel kind of crippled as a townie(more so than usual, I mean!). The Mafia can pretty much roll right over us in the hits by providing few clues, no clues, or misleading clues, and on top of that we all know they're lying in their RP as well because no one's gonna RP "Alex rubbed his hands together like a shifty suspicious character." They're going to act just like everyone else... so no help there either.
At this point I'm not really sure how I'm supposed to be determining who's mafia and who's not. Traditionally we look for clues in the hits but frankly I don't see a lot of anything unless I'm so dense I'm missing it ALL this time around. If the clues are in the RP then we need more RP. There are some characters we haven't heard much from at all. So I guess that's my question... what exactly are townies supposed to be looking for here?
Otherwise the RP is lots of fun and the idea of getting to write some scenes ourselves is also cool. I like the format, but I guess without seeing it from the Mafia side it's very difficult to understand the game dynamic (obviously we can't see it from both sides).
As far as organization goes, I'm fine with having a thread for each day (or each hit as it were) although the additional threads like the gaming and scavenger hunt make it very difficult to understand timeline-wise. It doesn't need to be completely linear, I don't think, but having the gaming thread up in addition to the scavenger hunt might be adding in more RP than people can handle. I'd be fine with it, but then again I only work part time right now and in class the rest so I have frequent access to a computer and enough free time to make a nuisance of myself, even when on vacation apparently (incidentally everyone needs to go see Cahokia Mounds at some point in their life).
Anyway that's my 2c for now... I love this idea and hink you guys are doing a super job with it. It's totally a work in progress, but also completely possible with some tweaking I think. :)
At this point I'm not really sure how I'm supposed to be determining who's mafia and who's not. Traditionally we look for clues in the hits but frankly I don't see a lot of anything unless I'm so dense I'm missing it ALL this time around. If the clues are in the RP then we need more RP. There are some characters we haven't heard much from at all. So I guess that's my question... what exactly are townies supposed to be looking for here?
Otherwise the RP is lots of fun and the idea of getting to write some scenes ourselves is also cool. I like the format, but I guess without seeing it from the Mafia side it's very difficult to understand the game dynamic (obviously we can't see it from both sides).
As far as organization goes, I'm fine with having a thread for each day (or each hit as it were) although the additional threads like the gaming and scavenger hunt make it very difficult to understand timeline-wise. It doesn't need to be completely linear, I don't think, but having the gaming thread up in addition to the scavenger hunt might be adding in more RP than people can handle. I'd be fine with it, but then again I only work part time right now and in class the rest so I have frequent access to a computer and enough free time to make a nuisance of myself, even when on vacation apparently (incidentally everyone needs to go see Cahokia Mounds at some point in their life).
Anyway that's my 2c for now... I love this idea and hink you guys are doing a super job with it. It's totally a work in progress, but also completely possible with some tweaking I think. :)
pharren
15 years ago
I approach these games with a basic, rough draft storyline for my character worked out ahead of time. Maybe I'm different from everyone else, but I would have no problem working this out. As a Townie, I can roleplay being callous and unconcerned, and even delighted with the killings. As Mafia, I could express regret or disgust internally without outright lying, or I could talk to other characters and then tell blatant lies and put on a show of being distraught.
I really only take issue with things like a character's internal monologue containing "proof" of innocence like "oh my God, who could have done such a thing?" when that character was obviously present. I don't see how you'd make it an enforceable rule either, but really, if it were a rule, it would not be all that difficult to work with. The only danger to the Mafia would be in Townies collaborating/coercing everyone into posting something that would violate the rule if they were Mafia... but if that is happening, there are more serious problems than making the game "too challenging" for the Mafia, namely, serious ethical violations on the part of whoever organized it.
Townies really do have very little to work with. I've fallen back on the failsafe of examining player's actions and communications, but there's slim pickings even there because of the lack of OOC. But don't get me wrong; I don't want OOC, and I don't want to be reduced to analyzing player's psychological profiles and other ridiculous shit. Ideally, we want to be able to figure out who is Mafia from the kill scenes or from roleplay, but how? If we aren't clue mining (PS: lol @ Mafia re: attempt to frame me with the Wystro kill (and if that was accidental, lol more)) then our only option is analyzing roleplay or analyzing communications outside of the game. The only way I can see is by regulating Mafia roleplay behavior.
Right now there are some obvious clues being put into the kill scenes and I'm afraid none of them point to Mafia members. That puts Townies at a serious, serious disadvantage. It's like shooting fish in a barrel for the Mafia then.
If I were running the show, I'd change the way kill scenes are done. Something like have the Mafia submit a method of death, some witty repartee, maybe even write a whole scene, but the mods would go back and add in clues of their own. Obviously, that would dramatically alter the way the game is run for the mods, and require that much more time and effort on your part, so... yeah.
To deny character's the chance to express concern or shock and horror would be to lose a major element of roleplaying - even if those characters aren't really shocked or feeling horror because they are the rat bastard doing the killing. It is really the only outlet they have to appear innocent since there is no real time direct dialogue, or OOC. If we ask them not to do any of that, then they would quickly be outted by those characters that could do that - or we'd have to ask no one to.
I really only take issue with things like a character's internal monologue containing "proof" of innocence like "oh my God, who could have done such a thing?" when that character was obviously present. I don't see how you'd make it an enforceable rule either, but really, if it were a rule, it would not be all that difficult to work with. The only danger to the Mafia would be in Townies collaborating/coercing everyone into posting something that would violate the rule if they were Mafia... but if that is happening, there are more serious problems than making the game "too challenging" for the Mafia, namely, serious ethical violations on the part of whoever organized it.
Townies really do have very little to work with. I've fallen back on the failsafe of examining player's actions and communications, but there's slim pickings even there because of the lack of OOC. But don't get me wrong; I don't want OOC, and I don't want to be reduced to analyzing player's psychological profiles and other ridiculous shit. Ideally, we want to be able to figure out who is Mafia from the kill scenes or from roleplay, but how? If we aren't clue mining (PS: lol @ Mafia re: attempt to frame me with the Wystro kill (and if that was accidental, lol more)) then our only option is analyzing roleplay or analyzing communications outside of the game. The only way I can see is by regulating Mafia roleplay behavior.
Right now there are some obvious clues being put into the kill scenes and I'm afraid none of them point to Mafia members. That puts Townies at a serious, serious disadvantage. It's like shooting fish in a barrel for the Mafia then.
If I were running the show, I'd change the way kill scenes are done. Something like have the Mafia submit a method of death, some witty repartee, maybe even write a whole scene, but the mods would go back and add in clues of their own. Obviously, that would dramatically alter the way the game is run for the mods, and require that much more time and effort on your part, so... yeah.
Mai
15 years ago
I also agree that if we are supposed to be looking at only how the kill is done that's very little to go on. There seem to be odd word choices that normally would seem like clues but since there is not supposed to be any of that I am guessing those weren't intentional. It is hard for the townies to discuss and figure things out. We're having to do them via PM which is time consuming and who knows what is being said to each person or through the roleplay and hope we can find a way to get it all in there and make it make sense as our character.
I see what Pharren is saying about the "Thought Lying" versus the lying by words or actions. It does make sense to be mafia and not think, "Oh no, they killed little Timmy! I loved Timmy!" but still pretend for the sake of everyone else. However, I do think we also have people smart enough to look for that so it would be hard to enforce. Plus, you could be mafia and perhaps feel that the killing was necessary (maybe not in this scenario, but who knows, maybe Victoria is holding their families hostage or something) and be genuinely sad to see someone die, even though they killed them. It would be hard to be shocked about it though...without having some memory loss or mental issues.
I knew it! Alex how could you?!?! :bunny2
I see what Pharren is saying about the "Thought Lying" versus the lying by words or actions. It does make sense to be mafia and not think, "Oh no, they killed little Timmy! I loved Timmy!" but still pretend for the sake of everyone else. However, I do think we also have people smart enough to look for that so it would be hard to enforce. Plus, you could be mafia and perhaps feel that the killing was necessary (maybe not in this scenario, but who knows, maybe Victoria is holding their families hostage or something) and be genuinely sad to see someone die, even though they killed them. It would be hard to be shocked about it though...without having some memory loss or mental issues.
Blackrabbit
"Alex rubbed his hands together like a shifty suspicious character."
I knew it! Alex how could you?!?! :bunny2
pharren
15 years ago
This is under the assumption that all Townies are going to express their shock and horror through internal dialogue. I don't want to interact with cookies. Everyone shouldn't have to act a certain way. If people are playing like that, then I'm not interested in playing. I guess if enough people feel that stopping Mafia from "thought lying" would be unfair to them because everyone else was going to do the "oh no they killed Timmy" stuff, then the only way would be to ban everyone from the "oh no they killed Timmy" stuff, and that is just ridiculous. So we're back to Square One.
That's where "tee hee, my character is a paranoid schizophrenic with dissociative identity disorder" comes into play, lol.
I think I will just resign myself to being unsatisfied with whatever solution ends up being put into place. I have some weird standard of conduct that for some reason wants to impose itself on everyone else, and I recognize how absurd that is.
However, I do think we also have people smart enough to look for that
This is under the assumption that all Townies are going to express their shock and horror through internal dialogue. I don't want to interact with cookies. Everyone shouldn't have to act a certain way. If people are playing like that, then I'm not interested in playing. I guess if enough people feel that stopping Mafia from "thought lying" would be unfair to them because everyone else was going to do the "oh no they killed Timmy" stuff, then the only way would be to ban everyone from the "oh no they killed Timmy" stuff, and that is just ridiculous. So we're back to Square One.
It would be hard to be shocked about it though...without having some memory loss or mental issues.
That's where "tee hee, my character is a paranoid schizophrenic with dissociative identity disorder" comes into play, lol.
I think I will just resign myself to being unsatisfied with whatever solution ends up being put into place. I have some weird standard of conduct that for some reason wants to impose itself on everyone else, and I recognize how absurd that is.
Wystro
15 years ago
The dialogue can be limited to action and speech with no internal dialogue. Instead of this:
...you would have this:
There's no internal dialogue in the last one, only dialogue, outward action, and colorful description of how that action appears. I think that applying the one discipline of no internal dialogue to the threads will make for fairer RP and stylistically consistent text that will be easier to read through.
Plus, back story and other character information would have to be stated as dialogue to other characters thereby creating more RP interaction. As it stands now, characters can have an RP of one just with internal observations and meta narrative.
Bonnie was shocked and frightened.
"Which one of you murdered Tadd? Show yourself, you cowardly butcher!"
Bonnie collapsed in a heap of wracking sobs. How will I ever live without Tadd, she thought despondently. She felt her soul splintering under the weight of unbearable grief.
...you would have this:
Bonnie appeared shocked and frightened.
"Which one of you murdered Tadd? Show yourself, you cowardly butcher!"
Bonnie collapsed in a heap of wracking sobs.
"How will I ever live without Tadd," she whispered. Her voice quivered as if her soul were splintering under unbearable grief.
There's no internal dialogue in the last one, only dialogue, outward action, and colorful description of how that action appears. I think that applying the one discipline of no internal dialogue to the threads will make for fairer RP and stylistically consistent text that will be easier to read through.
Plus, back story and other character information would have to be stated as dialogue to other characters thereby creating more RP interaction. As it stands now, characters can have an RP of one just with internal observations and meta narrative.
pharren
15 years ago
That's the cheap way to OOC. You can introduce clues to other players via internal monologue, and then discuss them with dialogue, or just leave it at the monologue and let the other players consider the information. This was actually the only alternative I could think of to OOC, but you still couldn't discuss extragame material, like player reactions, eg: "Wystro got all defensive when I mentioned that Chrystal wore Sketchers; he's obviously hiding something".
I don't like the idea of no internal monologue at all, simply because I enjoy writing it I think. Maybe we could limit what the rule applies to. We should be able to use all the monologue we want in the scavenger hunt and other just-for-fun RP stuff that isn't necessarily related to the killing. But it's a thing I can live without, if people think it will be the right solution.
As it stands now, characters can have an RP of one just with internal observations and meta narrative.
That's the cheap way to OOC. You can introduce clues to other players via internal monologue, and then discuss them with dialogue, or just leave it at the monologue and let the other players consider the information. This was actually the only alternative I could think of to OOC, but you still couldn't discuss extragame material, like player reactions, eg: "Wystro got all defensive when I mentioned that Chrystal wore Sketchers; he's obviously hiding something".
I don't like the idea of no internal monologue at all, simply because I enjoy writing it I think. Maybe we could limit what the rule applies to. We should be able to use all the monologue we want in the scavenger hunt and other just-for-fun RP stuff that isn't necessarily related to the killing. But it's a thing I can live without, if people think it will be the right solution.