More thoughts :X.
Is it just me, or did women character models in EQ lean toward younger faces while men character models leaned toward older, more mature looks? Any trends you notice in other games with regard to character models?
Women gamers and stereotypes
I generally hold the belief that women can do anything men do in a video game, but it seems different classes/playstyles appeal to women, and women are treated differently in game than men. I thought I would throw a few observations out there and see if people think I'm accurate, if it's wrong, if it needs to change, if game designers need to do better, etc. etc.
1. Women characters get free stuff.
I have never received anything for free because I am a woman. Perhaps if I played a pretty little woodelf things would be different. I played a big barbarian shaman and maybe she scared boys off .
2. Women are good healers; men are better tanks.
I honestly haven't seen a great many women tanks. Great female clerics? Easy. So why is this, I wonder? Is it simply that other classes are more appealing to women, so they don't play tanks? Are we in some way less suited to the role of damage taking by virtue of something within the female temperament? Likewise, is there something in our temperament that makes us good healers? Is our nurturing instinct kicking in or is that all a bunch of crap?
I've no doubt women can tank as well as men, but why don't we generally want to play the meat shield? What is appealing to women about healing classes?
Some other random observations that I don't really have any comments on:
3. I notice that during my time in EQ there were always some women in leadership positions in my guild. However, it seemed the role of women was things like conflict resolution, forum management, recruitment, and administrative duties, whereas men held roles like raid leader and overall guildleader. I wonder why that is.
4. I have never felt that I was considered a less skilled player because I am a woman, at least not directly. Just felt that needed to be said. I did sometimes feel you had to have a penis to be listened to in groups or whatever, but I don't have a very authoritative temperament, so perhaps there were times when I was simply not assertive enough.
5. This is something that I've asked other women about...I'm not sure if it's true or not, but many of us feel that we are asked for buffs more than men of the same class. Honestly...this is something I'm guilty of /blush. I of course tried to mix it up a bit, but I did tend to ask women for buffs more than men. More of that nurturing stuff, or is something else going on?
6. This is just an impression, but does anyone else feel a disproportionate amount of women never go to the high end, even though they play just as many hours as men? Why is that? Just not the playstyle women generally prefer? Too hard to break into a man's playground?
7. I can be pretty quick to point out a double standard even when it's not exactly fair. Anyway, here's a few I've noticed, which you may disregard or beat into the ground if you wish.
a. Women can't act sexy and be considered "legit". In fact, calling someone "hon" can easily lead to a woman being painted a cyber whore. However, it seems men can talk openly about their sexual exploits in and out of game without fear of gaining a bad reputation. Eh, same in RL I guess.
b. Ambitious women=evil whores trying to claw their way to the top. Ambitious men=honorable hard working loyal players who "just want to see their guild succeed". Or if they're guild hoppers, Ambitious men=guys who just want to be the best and play on their own terms, since they pay to play and all.
c. Constantly afk woman=busy lady who has to take care of a kid after all. Constantly afk man=lazy bastard who should die in a fire.
So...thoughts?
Verileah
21 years ago
Anulien
21 years ago
Yes, women suck at being elitist and always have to have stuff done for them/given to them to progress.
I haven't seen any great women tanks. Nor have I seen any great women healers for that matter. Don't get me wrong, there are decent ones and ones I would group with with. But I've never seen a woman on any Best of the Best lists and I've never gone OMG YOU ARE FUCKING AMAZING to any woman in any MMORPG. The classes I've seen females accel at the most are DPS classes like rogues and wizards where the mob interaction was limited to assist and press 1-2-3.
They can 'fix' everything I guess.
See above comment. Women are prone to be more understanding and patient (especially women with kids). I'd have a mom as a conflict resolution officer before any man only because they do a better job of listening and calming someone down. I never had any problems telling people to die in a fire and letting them know how much penis they sucked. This didn't make me a great raid leader but it made me an effective one, I can safely say shit got handled.
Anyone, male or female, can fill the lead role in a group, raid or guild. It is just a matter of having the knowledge of your environment and people to do so. However I have not known any females who have taken the time to understand both. There have been a few who think they do though or have tried. I don't know if Laeloo and Larka are actually female but I know they did a good job in BoR and are doing a good job in Harbinger though.
I've never considered gender when requesting buffs. I did /who shaman or /who cleric and asked the first person I haven't asked for a while. Mira and Tera usually kept symbol on me so it was just a matter of bugging a shaman and a druid. When I was in Triadica I am sure I always bugged Veri for buffs though!
There is a dispraportionate amount because more men play MMORPGS than women. I don't even need some statistics report to know this.
This is also true IRL. Maybe it is based on wishful thinking on guys behalfs that all women are whores and that they will do them too.
Women suck at MMORPGS so I can't really see a woman trying to be The Best Of The Best. So I guess that leaves us with evil whore!
Hi Yindarye. Hi Juggalo. The end.
Verileah
1. Women characters get free stuff.
Yes, women suck at being elitist and always have to have stuff done for them/given to them to progress.
Verileah
2. Women are good healers; men are better tanks.
I haven't seen any great women tanks. Nor have I seen any great women healers for that matter. Don't get me wrong, there are decent ones and ones I would group with with. But I've never seen a woman on any Best of the Best lists and I've never gone OMG YOU ARE FUCKING AMAZING to any woman in any MMORPG. The classes I've seen females accel at the most are DPS classes like rogues and wizards where the mob interaction was limited to assist and press 1-2-3.
Verileah
I've no doubt women can tank as well as men, but why don't we generally want to play the meat shield? What is appealing to women about healing classes?
They can 'fix' everything I guess.
Verileah
3. I notice that during my time in EQ there were always some women in leadership positions in my guild. However, it seemed the role of women was things like conflict resolution, forum management, recruitment, and administrative duties, whereas men held roles like raid leader and overall guildleader. I wonder why that is.
See above comment. Women are prone to be more understanding and patient (especially women with kids). I'd have a mom as a conflict resolution officer before any man only because they do a better job of listening and calming someone down. I never had any problems telling people to die in a fire and letting them know how much penis they sucked. This didn't make me a great raid leader but it made me an effective one, I can safely say shit got handled.
Verileah
4. I have never felt that I was considered a less skilled player because I am a woman, at least not directly. Just felt that needed to be said. I did sometimes feel you had to have a penis to be listened to in groups or whatever, but I don't have a very authoritative temperament, so perhaps there were times when I was simply not assertive enough.
Anyone, male or female, can fill the lead role in a group, raid or guild. It is just a matter of having the knowledge of your environment and people to do so. However I have not known any females who have taken the time to understand both. There have been a few who think they do though or have tried. I don't know if Laeloo and Larka are actually female but I know they did a good job in BoR and are doing a good job in Harbinger though.
Verileah
5. This is something that I've asked other women about...I'm not sure if it's true or not, but many of us feel that we are asked for buffs more than men of the same class. Honestly...this is something I'm guilty of /blush. I of course tried to mix it up a bit, but I did tend to ask women for buffs more than men. More of that nurturing stuff, or is something else going on?
I've never considered gender when requesting buffs. I did /who shaman or /who cleric and asked the first person I haven't asked for a while. Mira and Tera usually kept symbol on me so it was just a matter of bugging a shaman and a druid. When I was in Triadica I am sure I always bugged Veri for buffs though!
Verileah
6. This is just an impression, but does anyone else feel a disproportionate amount of women never go to the high end, even though they play just as many hours as men? Why is that? Just not the playstyle women generally prefer? Too hard to break into a man's playground?
There is a dispraportionate amount because more men play MMORPGS than women. I don't even need some statistics report to know this.
Verileah
a. Women can't act sexy and be considered "legit". In fact, calling someone "hon" can easily lead to a woman being painted a cyber whore. However, it seems men can talk openly about their sexual exploits in and out of game without fear of gaining a bad reputation. Eh, same in RL I guess.
This is also true IRL. Maybe it is based on wishful thinking on guys behalfs that all women are whores and that they will do them too.
Verileah
b. Ambitious women=evil whores trying to claw their way to the top. Ambitious men=honorable hard working loyal players who "just want to see their guild succeed". Or if they're guild hoppers, Ambitious men=guys who just want to be the best and play on their own terms, since they pay to play and all.
Women suck at MMORPGS so I can't really see a woman trying to be The Best Of The Best. So I guess that leaves us with evil whore!
Verileah
c. Constantly afk woman=busy lady who has to take care of a kid after all. Constantly afk man=lazy bastard who should die in a fire.
Hi Yindarye. Hi Juggalo. The end.
Anulien
21 years ago
Also true in WoW. Which is why I made a Veyah instead of making an Anulien. I didn't want to play some old looking guy with horribly disproportioned body when I could play a nice looking female with a pleasently disproportioned body. The female characters I played in EQ were only because they were characters Mira was supposed to play. Veyah was actually Mira's warrior that I didn't want to remake when I stopped playing Anulien. Midorii was her druid that I of course also ended up playing.
Verileah
More thoughts :X.
Is it just me, or did women character models in EQ lean toward younger faces while men character models leaned toward older, more mature looks? Any trends you notice in other games with regard to character models?
Also true in WoW. Which is why I made a Veyah instead of making an Anulien. I didn't want to play some old looking guy with horribly disproportioned body when I could play a nice looking female with a pleasently disproportioned body. The female characters I played in EQ were only because they were characters Mira was supposed to play. Veyah was actually Mira's warrior that I didn't want to remake when I stopped playing Anulien. Midorii was her druid that I of course also ended up playing.
drizzi
21 years ago
biggest difference i noticed is that people are way friendlier towards female characters. may it be group invites, guild invites, answering questions or giving out free stuff. it all happened to me alot when i played female chars (which isnt often). people i dont know gave me free blue items in wow, even in higher levels. and i cancelled the trade each time, because i thought it was wrong to accept it because im no real woman.
Verileah
21 years ago
To be fair, how many players, regardless of gender,have you said OMG YOU ARE FUCKING AMAZING to?
I've never seen a woman on a Best of the Best list either...I was kind of wondering about that. Is it a lack of ambition or bias? Or neither? I don't know...there are plenty of good female gamers out there, I'm certain of that. Are they flying under the radar?
I guess my question is, are women generally not acknowledged among the "greats" because of their own choices, or because something else is going on?
You know, I think women actually like having control over a situation. Maybe they see leading raids as a losing battle for control and prefer to go to areas where their authority is unquestioned? It's not like a woman can't tell someone to die in a fire, though telling a guy how much penis he sucks could be considered hypocritical :X.
Anyway, it's sweet that you consider women more understanding and patient, but I'm skeptical on that :\. The guys had to tell me to chill out all the time. *shrugs*.
Again, you bring up a general lack of initiative among women gamers. I -really- wonder about this...but I struggle to come to any conclusions. I know leadership didn't appeal to me personally, and I never worried about making best of the best lists...other things mattered to me more.
The thing that worries me a little about your posts is that you assume a lot about women based on your experiences. I hope we can all keep open minds and look at people as individuals *shrugs*. Again, these are stereotypes, and while maybe there's a reason for them they aren't as definitive as you make them seem by way of throwing around the "all" and "any" and "never" words.
nono, by disproportionate amount I mean that out of all women gamers, the percentage of women who play the high end is less than the percentage of men who play the high end, all things being equal. *shrugs* maybe I'm wrong.
So which is it? Lack of skill or lack of ambition?
I haven't seen any great women tanks. Nor have I seen any great women healers for that matter. Don't get me wrong, there are decent ones and ones I would group with with. But I've never seen a woman on any Best of the Best lists and I've never gone OMG YOU ARE FUCKING AMAZING to any woman in any MMORPG. The classes I've seen females accel at the most are DPS classes like rogues and wizards where the mob interaction was limited to assist and press 1-2-3.
To be fair, how many players, regardless of gender,have you said OMG YOU ARE FUCKING AMAZING to?
I've never seen a woman on a Best of the Best list either...I was kind of wondering about that. Is it a lack of ambition or bias? Or neither? I don't know...there are plenty of good female gamers out there, I'm certain of that. Are they flying under the radar?
I guess my question is, are women generally not acknowledged among the "greats" because of their own choices, or because something else is going on?
See above comment. Women are prone to be more understanding and patient (especially women with kids). I'd have a mom as a conflict resolution officer before any man only because they do a better job of listening and calming someone down. I never had any problems telling people to die in a fire and letting them know how much penis they sucked. This didn't make me a great raid leader but it made me an effective one, I can safely say shit got handled.
You know, I think women actually like having control over a situation. Maybe they see leading raids as a losing battle for control and prefer to go to areas where their authority is unquestioned? It's not like a woman can't tell someone to die in a fire, though telling a guy how much penis he sucks could be considered hypocritical :X.
Anyway, it's sweet that you consider women more understanding and patient, but I'm skeptical on that :\. The guys had to tell me to chill out all the time. *shrugs*.
Anyone, male or female, can fill the lead role in a group, raid or guild. It is just a matter of having the knowledge of your environment and people to do so. However I have not known any females who have taken the time to understand both. There have been a few who think they do though or have tried. I don't know if Laeloo and Larka are actually female but I know they did a good job in BoR and are doing a good job in Harbinger though.
Again, you bring up a general lack of initiative among women gamers. I -really- wonder about this...but I struggle to come to any conclusions. I know leadership didn't appeal to me personally, and I never worried about making best of the best lists...other things mattered to me more.
The thing that worries me a little about your posts is that you assume a lot about women based on your experiences. I hope we can all keep open minds and look at people as individuals *shrugs*. Again, these are stereotypes, and while maybe there's a reason for them they aren't as definitive as you make them seem by way of throwing around the "all" and "any" and "never" words.
There is a dispraportionate amount because more men play MMORPGS than women. I don't even need some statistics report to know this.
nono, by disproportionate amount I mean that out of all women gamers, the percentage of women who play the high end is less than the percentage of men who play the high end, all things being equal. *shrugs* maybe I'm wrong.
Women suck at MMORPGS so I can't really see a woman trying to be The Best Of The Best. So I guess that leaves us with evil whore!
So which is it? Lack of skill or lack of ambition?
Verileah
21 years ago
hmm. I wonder if people are nicer to me because I have a female toon, or if it's because I'm a nice person :D. I have a theory that this ties into my buff comments; perhaps women characters are considered more approachable in general? So you're more likely to see other people's generosity, but that's just the tip of the iceberg :D.
biggest difference i noticed is that people are way friendlier towards female characters. may it be group invites, guild invites, answering questions or giving out free stuff. it all happened to me alot when i played female chars (which isnt often). people i dont know gave me free blue items in wow, even in higher levels. and i cancelled the trade each time, because i thought it was wrong to accept it because im no real woman.
hmm. I wonder if people are nicer to me because I have a female toon, or if it's because I'm a nice person :D. I have a theory that this ties into my buff comments; perhaps women characters are considered more approachable in general? So you're more likely to see other people's generosity, but that's just the tip of the iceberg :D.
Anulien
21 years ago
On SolRo, all the top players of the top guild's, maybe about 50-60 max. None of them female.
Sure there might be good female gamers. Name a great female gamer for me though. I can't. It's not because I am biased, it is because they just don't exist. I have 0 problems saying when someone is better than me so no one try to call a gender card on me.
It is an interesting question. Why were you only a good player instead of a great one?
Sure, woman love having control. Loving to have control and actually doing something with a desire to be in control are 2 differnet worlds. In the guilds I have been in I have not seen any woman try and step up to any type of raid leading position.
I am not as skeptical on it, that role is always pushed off onto a female so others must see the same thing.
What else is there in end game mmorpgs? Friendship?
Everyone makes assumptions based on experience, its part of being an individual and forming an opinion. There are simply no BoTB or elitist female players in MMORPGS. I can't name any, can you?
Both?
Verileah
To be fair, how many players, regardless of gender,have you said OMG YOU ARE FUCKING AMAZING to?
On SolRo, all the top players of the top guild's, maybe about 50-60 max. None of them female.
Verileah
I don't know...there are plenty of good female gamers out there, I'm certain of that. Are they flying under the radar?
Sure there might be good female gamers. Name a great female gamer for me though. I can't. It's not because I am biased, it is because they just don't exist. I have 0 problems saying when someone is better than me so no one try to call a gender card on me.
Verileah
I guess my question is, are women generally not acknowledged among the "greats" because of their own choices, or because something else is going on?
It is an interesting question. Why were you only a good player instead of a great one?
Verileah
You know, I think women actually like having control over a situation. Maybe they see leading raids as a losing battle for control and prefer to go to areas where their authority is unquestioned?
Sure, woman love having control. Loving to have control and actually doing something with a desire to be in control are 2 differnet worlds. In the guilds I have been in I have not seen any woman try and step up to any type of raid leading position.
Verileah
Anyway, it's sweet that you consider women more understanding and patient, but I'm skeptical on that :\. The guys had to tell me to chill out all the time. *shrugs*.
I am not as skeptical on it, that role is always pushed off onto a female so others must see the same thing.
Verileah
Again, you bring up a general lack of initiative among women gamers. I -really- wonder about this...but I struggle to come to any conclusions. I know leadership didn't appeal to me personally, and I never worried about making best of the best lists...other things mattered to me more.
What else is there in end game mmorpgs? Friendship?
Verileah
The thing that worries me a little about your posts is that you assume a lot about women based on your experiences. I hope we can all keep open minds and look at people as individuals *shrugs*. Again, these are stereotypes, and while maybe there's a reason for them they aren't as definitive as you make them seem by way of throwing around the "all" and "any" and "never" words.
Everyone makes assumptions based on experience, its part of being an individual and forming an opinion. There are simply no BoTB or elitist female players in MMORPGS. I can't name any, can you?
Verileah
So which is it? Lack of skill or lack of ambition?
Both?
Verileah
21 years ago
I'm not calling a gender card on you. I too wonder where the women heroes are :\.
God, every answer I come up with sounds like a cop out :(. I'm seriously trying to articulate the barriers that stood between me and greatness...I'm quite willing to acknowledge they were of my own making (if for no other reason than because I can freakin steamroll over other people's barriers), but it's difficult for me to define how much was the game itself, how much ambition, how much different definitions of greatness. Even saying "well I have different definitions of what great is" sounds so candyass *laughs*. There really is a certain amount of truth in that for me though. Anyway, I guess I'll go with a little of all three.
When you first started playing EQ, were you honestly and sincerely looking to become the greatest and best geared bard on the server? Because I don't think I honestly know anyone who had that in mind when they started playing an mmo, so this would be a fascinating first for me.
Sure there might be good female gamers. Name a great female gamer for me though. I can't. It's not because I am biased, it is because they just don't exist. I have 0 problems saying when someone is better than me so no one try to call a gender card on me.
I'm not calling a gender card on you. I too wonder where the women heroes are :\.
It is an interesting question. Why were you only a good player instead of a great one?
God, every answer I come up with sounds like a cop out :(. I'm seriously trying to articulate the barriers that stood between me and greatness...I'm quite willing to acknowledge they were of my own making (if for no other reason than because I can freakin steamroll over other people's barriers), but it's difficult for me to define how much was the game itself, how much ambition, how much different definitions of greatness. Even saying "well I have different definitions of what great is" sounds so candyass *laughs*. There really is a certain amount of truth in that for me though. Anyway, I guess I'll go with a little of all three.
What else is there in end game mmorpgs? Friendship?
When you first started playing EQ, were you honestly and sincerely looking to become the greatest and best geared bard on the server? Because I don't think I honestly know anyone who had that in mind when they started playing an mmo, so this would be a fascinating first for me.
Verileah
21 years ago
I still maintain they exist, but my main concern was actually that you don't assume a woman doesn't want it all just because you've never seen a "great one" before. Just like you don't assume a woman is a bad driver before you see them behind the wheel.
Everyone makes assumptions based on experience, its part of being an individual and forming an opinion. There are simply no BoTB or elitist female players in MMORPGS. I can't name any, can you?
I still maintain they exist, but my main concern was actually that you don't assume a woman doesn't want it all just because you've never seen a "great one" before. Just like you don't assume a woman is a bad driver before you see them behind the wheel.
Anulien
21 years ago
Yes. With my social interaction skills I thought it would was obvious I didn't play to make friends.
Verileah
When you first started playing EQ, were you honestly and sincerely looking to become the greatest and best geared bard on the server? Because I don't think I honestly know anyone who had that in mind when they started playing an mmo, so this would be a fascinating first for me.
Yes. With my social interaction skills I thought it would was obvious I didn't play to make friends.
Vulash
21 years ago
I think part of it is women's lack of caring about their E-peen. Now obviously this isn't true for everyone, but in general men like fast cars, loud stereos and killing end game bosses before other guys - and then showing that off in some way. Women are just as ambitious as men, but not really for the same reasons and MMORPG end game ambition is generally a rather specific one related to "penis waving", and I think that is why you see less women at the end game - or at least active in getting there. Many that end up in an end game guild are friends/girlfriends/wives of someone else and they are still there socially. Obviously thats a blanket and I've known many female gamers with that drive and ambition to be the top.
The person I consider the best player I knew in EQ - period - was a female. Nastile from Scarlet Horizon. She had no desire to see the end game, however, and preferred to level alts and max out every possible trade skill and just have fun. Skill wise though I haven't met anyone I thought could top her, but only those people that knew her very very well would agree with me because she didn't farm big mobs or have good gear.
To be quite honest I've met alot of women that suck. I've met alot of men that suck too, but the ratio is more for the women. I don't know why this is. No one I played with that posts here is one of these people, and never did I get a group and think "oh god a female they will suck", but looking back there were alot of Yindarye's out there.
Also I made a female toon once early on in my EQ career just to see what it would be like - and then towards the end someone gave me a naked DE female cleric on FV server and I can say for sure that people are WAY more friendly to female chars. It was unreal and I'm not a flirty person at all, but I got so much free stuff and flirty guys even after I made it blatently obvious I was male.
The person I consider the best player I knew in EQ - period - was a female. Nastile from Scarlet Horizon. She had no desire to see the end game, however, and preferred to level alts and max out every possible trade skill and just have fun. Skill wise though I haven't met anyone I thought could top her, but only those people that knew her very very well would agree with me because she didn't farm big mobs or have good gear.
To be quite honest I've met alot of women that suck. I've met alot of men that suck too, but the ratio is more for the women. I don't know why this is. No one I played with that posts here is one of these people, and never did I get a group and think "oh god a female they will suck", but looking back there were alot of Yindarye's out there.
Also I made a female toon once early on in my EQ career just to see what it would be like - and then towards the end someone gave me a naked DE female cleric on FV server and I can say for sure that people are WAY more friendly to female chars. It was unreal and I'm not a flirty person at all, but I got so much free stuff and flirty guys even after I made it blatently obvious I was male.
Verileah
21 years ago
Okay this statement bothers me, and I think maybe I've figured out why. The problem is within the question; what else is there indeed but a single track to "success." Maybe women generally just aren't interested in that track; maybe if there were other paths to the top, and more choices as far as what was considered the end game, you'd see more women on the BotB lists. As it stands now, the only way to progress in an mmo at the end game is to join a militaristic raiding guild. Now I don't want to bash that, I'm not interested so much in a debate between hard core raiding and casual playing, but maybe that just doesn't draw women in the same way it attracts men.
Look at the RL american military; women can choose almost all of the same career paths as men now, and while the female population in the military is growing (as is the female mmo population iirc), there still aren't as many women who want to become soldiers as men.
At any rate, the other reason that statement bothers me is because it was hard for me to understand that perspective; I went into EQ wanting -totally- different things out of the game and set very different expectations for myself, and then tried to fit the mold of a raider. Most of the time it worked out and I had fun and all, but I was never going to be one of the "top players" *shrugs*. I also found different things fun about high end raiding than seemily everyone else :\. And yet here I am measuring myself against standards that, hey wait a minute, I don't care about :(. Meh.
Anyway, I didn't want this to get personal just because I worry I'm a bad example of a woman gamer by virtue of being totally weird. *small voice* anyone else?
What else is there in end game mmorpgs? Friendship?
Okay this statement bothers me, and I think maybe I've figured out why. The problem is within the question; what else is there indeed but a single track to "success." Maybe women generally just aren't interested in that track; maybe if there were other paths to the top, and more choices as far as what was considered the end game, you'd see more women on the BotB lists. As it stands now, the only way to progress in an mmo at the end game is to join a militaristic raiding guild. Now I don't want to bash that, I'm not interested so much in a debate between hard core raiding and casual playing, but maybe that just doesn't draw women in the same way it attracts men.
Look at the RL american military; women can choose almost all of the same career paths as men now, and while the female population in the military is growing (as is the female mmo population iirc), there still aren't as many women who want to become soldiers as men.
At any rate, the other reason that statement bothers me is because it was hard for me to understand that perspective; I went into EQ wanting -totally- different things out of the game and set very different expectations for myself, and then tried to fit the mold of a raider. Most of the time it worked out and I had fun and all, but I was never going to be one of the "top players" *shrugs*. I also found different things fun about high end raiding than seemily everyone else :\. And yet here I am measuring myself against standards that, hey wait a minute, I don't care about :(. Meh.
Anyway, I didn't want this to get personal just because I worry I'm a bad example of a woman gamer by virtue of being totally weird. *small voice* anyone else?
Guest
21 years ago
I have a hard time answering these questions. As a female player, I was a guild leader, a raid leader, and a main tank. Besides receiving gear from friends and fellow guildmates, I only received free gear from a member of one of the top guilds on my server because I was playing a dark elf warrior and they thought I should be commended for straying from the usual tank mold.
No, I wasn't uber and I didn't really care to be. I was working full-time, going to college full-time, had a house, and an active social life. I wanted to do too many other things to spend that much time on EQ.
I can't say I consciously paid attention to female vs male characters. I never knew who was behind the toon anyway.
As far as the sexual stuff...well, I guess it's how the person portrays it. My guild was full of vulgar jokes so no one was really calling people slutty on account of that, but it certainly was noticable when people were being overtly sexual to get attention. I usually just thought of anyone doing stuff like that as taking advantage of the anonymity of the intraweb to get attention they didn't get in RL.
No, I wasn't uber and I didn't really care to be. I was working full-time, going to college full-time, had a house, and an active social life. I wanted to do too many other things to spend that much time on EQ.
I can't say I consciously paid attention to female vs male characters. I never knew who was behind the toon anyway.
As far as the sexual stuff...well, I guess it's how the person portrays it. My guild was full of vulgar jokes so no one was really calling people slutty on account of that, but it certainly was noticable when people were being overtly sexual to get attention. I usually just thought of anyone doing stuff like that as taking advantage of the anonymity of the intraweb to get attention they didn't get in RL.
Verileah
21 years ago
Hey, maybe my generalizations are totally wrong then *shrugs*. I'm just stabbing at some stuff I've been kicking around, could be totally missing here.
Hmmm....I can't deny this :). I wouldn't have played if Fozzik hadn't started and I very much enjoy partnering with my husband. I did, however, kind of have a chip on my shoulder about it *grins*. I used to get so mad when our old guildleader would lump us together and it was important for me to have my own "things". I chose a class entirely independently of what Fozzik was doing and tended more toward tradeskills and quests than his style of straight up adventuring all of the time. He never played my character and I never played his. Still...it was frustrating to be lumped together sometimes. Our old guildleader may have been on large amounts of crack though, so I pretty much take anything coming from him with a grain of salt.
As to the Yindarye's of Norrath...mmm, can't say I agree with their being more women icky players than men, though perhaps my perception was colored by the fact that I couldn't stand grouping with rude people, so perhaps some players were very skilled and I didn't give them a shot because they were rude. Also, there were more immature teenage boys (not that all teenage boys are immature) than there were teenage girls (same disclaimer). So those things might weigh up the men's side of the equation, if that makes sense.
I'm still a little confused on the "free stuff for women" thing. The men who helped me in EQ did so because they were my friends and were good guys. I never had someone just walk up and give me stuff. And women helped me too, and I tried to help anyone I could. I personally tried to be nice to everyone unless they were rude and people were generally nice back, though there were weird exceptions of course. I mean, what, are you men all really rude to each other or something? You should stop that and be nice, and then people will be nice and friendly back imo *smirk*. I'm kidding of course, but I don't get how things were so different for men.
Many that end up in an end game guild are friends/girlfriends/wives of someone else and they are still there socially.
Hmmm....I can't deny this :). I wouldn't have played if Fozzik hadn't started and I very much enjoy partnering with my husband. I did, however, kind of have a chip on my shoulder about it *grins*. I used to get so mad when our old guildleader would lump us together and it was important for me to have my own "things". I chose a class entirely independently of what Fozzik was doing and tended more toward tradeskills and quests than his style of straight up adventuring all of the time. He never played my character and I never played his. Still...it was frustrating to be lumped together sometimes. Our old guildleader may have been on large amounts of crack though, so I pretty much take anything coming from him with a grain of salt.
As to the Yindarye's of Norrath...mmm, can't say I agree with their being more women icky players than men, though perhaps my perception was colored by the fact that I couldn't stand grouping with rude people, so perhaps some players were very skilled and I didn't give them a shot because they were rude. Also, there were more immature teenage boys (not that all teenage boys are immature) than there were teenage girls (same disclaimer). So those things might weigh up the men's side of the equation, if that makes sense.
I'm still a little confused on the "free stuff for women" thing. The men who helped me in EQ did so because they were my friends and were good guys. I never had someone just walk up and give me stuff. And women helped me too, and I tried to help anyone I could. I personally tried to be nice to everyone unless they were rude and people were generally nice back, though there were weird exceptions of course. I mean, what, are you men all really rude to each other or something? You should stop that and be nice, and then people will be nice and friendly back imo *smirk*. I'm kidding of course, but I don't get how things were so different for men.
pharren
21 years ago
its true. people are generally more friendly to female characters than to men. its just the way we are brought up. IRL i hold a door open for women behind me, if i could do the same in EQ i probably would. i wouldnt go as far as to call it human nature, but it is something that is bred into us by society. i bet things are alot different in the middle east. ;)
angellixia. best cleric ive ever grouped with - ever. id categorize her as "amazing" and nothing less.
my guild is not militaristic in any way, and i would definately consider us to be an end game guild (anguish and tacvi). it has a very family type atmosphere, and yet we still kick major ass. the guild has quite a few RL females, many in their late 20s+. i dont get to group much, so i cant really comment on their abilities in a group, but they must be pretty damn good because all we have to do is beat stuff once and then its trivial afterwards. did i mention our guild leader is a female?
But I've never seen a woman on any Best of the Best lists and I've never gone OMG YOU ARE FUCKING AMAZING to any woman in any MMORPG.
angellixia. best cleric ive ever grouped with - ever. id categorize her as "amazing" and nothing less.
my guild is not militaristic in any way, and i would definately consider us to be an end game guild (anguish and tacvi). it has a very family type atmosphere, and yet we still kick major ass. the guild has quite a few RL females, many in their late 20s+. i dont get to group much, so i cant really comment on their abilities in a group, but they must be pretty damn good because all we have to do is beat stuff once and then its trivial afterwards. did i mention our guild leader is a female?
Verileah
21 years ago
AH HA! There we go :D. God, she was fucking awesome -and- always had a good attitude. Realllllly quiet though, wasn't any kind of showoff.
I suspect your guild is a fucking miracle Pharren :D. I noticed you had other women in key positions in addition to your guild leader. Do you think it makes any difference in the feel of the guild?
I like the way you explained the treatment of women in EQ...more of a cultural dealie than crude attempts to get into a lady's pants. I just feel bad because you guys make it sound like men miss out on a rewarding side of EQ. For example, I really enjoyed going to remote zones no one bothered with and meeting up with the one other person there and partnering for the afternoon. I wonder if they would have just said "no thanks" if I were a guy :(. I also had a tendancy to be chatty with people who asked me for buffs; would this have been totally weird if I were a dude?
There's a more serious concern of mine though, and that's accountability. If I fuck up, I don't want anyone to soften the blow because I'm a women and might /afk to cry in teh RL. Here's a question for Anulien; did you have any trouble telling a woman to die in a fire if she fucked up on a raid? I really struggled to get constructive critism on my performance because people thought I couldn't take it. I would just totally beat myself up after raids if I did the littlest thing wrong, and people not saying anything only made me feel worse. This might have just been a problem in Triadica, I'm not sure. But with guys, it seems like you can just say something like "Nice job -not- FDing when you were supposed to" or "great train, jackass," and it's all good, you've cleared the air, the guy has taken whatever under consideration and no one's ego is bruised. I've actually had a guys apologize to me when whatever bad thing happened was my freakin fault, it's so frustrating :(. I can't ask guys to completely change their ways with women and I'm not so much asking to be treated like a man...*sigh* but I don't know what the solution is other than to be gender blind when accountability needs to be handled. Also, it's more than a little possible that the man is wrong and that should be straightened out rather than brooding silently (or behind the woman's back :X) about percieved errors.
Meh, I'm worried that's going to be taken the wrong way :\. I'm not saying men know all and should stop keeping their secret vodoo knowledge from women; just saying it would be good to not hold back based on gender if you're the type who would say something normally.
angellixia. best cleric ive ever grouped with - ever. id categorize her as "amazing" and nothing less.
AH HA! There we go :D. God, she was fucking awesome -and- always had a good attitude. Realllllly quiet though, wasn't any kind of showoff.
I suspect your guild is a fucking miracle Pharren :D. I noticed you had other women in key positions in addition to your guild leader. Do you think it makes any difference in the feel of the guild?
I like the way you explained the treatment of women in EQ...more of a cultural dealie than crude attempts to get into a lady's pants. I just feel bad because you guys make it sound like men miss out on a rewarding side of EQ. For example, I really enjoyed going to remote zones no one bothered with and meeting up with the one other person there and partnering for the afternoon. I wonder if they would have just said "no thanks" if I were a guy :(. I also had a tendancy to be chatty with people who asked me for buffs; would this have been totally weird if I were a dude?
There's a more serious concern of mine though, and that's accountability. If I fuck up, I don't want anyone to soften the blow because I'm a women and might /afk to cry in teh RL. Here's a question for Anulien; did you have any trouble telling a woman to die in a fire if she fucked up on a raid? I really struggled to get constructive critism on my performance because people thought I couldn't take it. I would just totally beat myself up after raids if I did the littlest thing wrong, and people not saying anything only made me feel worse. This might have just been a problem in Triadica, I'm not sure. But with guys, it seems like you can just say something like "Nice job -not- FDing when you were supposed to" or "great train, jackass," and it's all good, you've cleared the air, the guy has taken whatever under consideration and no one's ego is bruised. I've actually had a guys apologize to me when whatever bad thing happened was my freakin fault, it's so frustrating :(. I can't ask guys to completely change their ways with women and I'm not so much asking to be treated like a man...*sigh* but I don't know what the solution is other than to be gender blind when accountability needs to be handled. Also, it's more than a little possible that the man is wrong and that should be straightened out rather than brooding silently (or behind the woman's back :X) about percieved errors.
Meh, I'm worried that's going to be taken the wrong way :\. I'm not saying men know all and should stop keeping their secret vodoo knowledge from women; just saying it would be good to not hold back based on gender if you're the type who would say something normally.
pharren
21 years ago
angellixia is really quiet and very modest. again i think that, in general, womens lack of representation throughout the high end game is probably a cultural/social thing as well. i dont think its all about the lack of skill (although that is part of it, see next paragraph) but lack of drive like vulash said to do the penis waving. im sure there are plenty of females that enjoy raiding just because they like to raid, but the number seems very small probably because of the small number of women playing video games in the first place. if you walked into a random crowded place, like a restaurant, or a shopping mall, and asked 100 females and 100 males if they like to play video games, how do you think the ratio would look of females to males? 1:3? 1:10?
another thing is the general lack of skills. this is likely to be changing with our generation and beyond, but in general women do not grow up cultivating the skills used in video games. hand-eye coordination. quick critical decision making. hell, women are playing with barbie dolls and learning how to cook and clean while men are playing video games or football. men play sports where it is required to adapt and play as a team, and make split second decisions while knowing your place and your role in the battlefield. this is probably a social/cultural thing as well, but maybe even genetic. just like different species of animals are bred to behave a certain way... dogs for example. sheepdogs have a built-in talent for herding. labradors have a built-in talent for retrieving. terriers have a built-in talent for being fucking annoying little yap yap dogs.
and yeah, i think men treat women the way they do in video games because its instinctive as well, either through cultural breeding or possibly genetic simply because of our need to please and provide for, all so we can get a piece of ass. 8)
and yes, without a doubt, men are less likely in general to criticize a woman, because they think that the woman cant handle it. dont fault the men for it though. its just society, and face it, the women usually cant handle it. its just how theyre raised. try telling a girl she needs to lose some weight. she will run away sobbing or give you a black eye.
another thing is the general lack of skills. this is likely to be changing with our generation and beyond, but in general women do not grow up cultivating the skills used in video games. hand-eye coordination. quick critical decision making. hell, women are playing with barbie dolls and learning how to cook and clean while men are playing video games or football. men play sports where it is required to adapt and play as a team, and make split second decisions while knowing your place and your role in the battlefield. this is probably a social/cultural thing as well, but maybe even genetic. just like different species of animals are bred to behave a certain way... dogs for example. sheepdogs have a built-in talent for herding. labradors have a built-in talent for retrieving. terriers have a built-in talent for being fucking annoying little yap yap dogs.
and yeah, i think men treat women the way they do in video games because its instinctive as well, either through cultural breeding or possibly genetic simply because of our need to please and provide for, all so we can get a piece of ass. 8)
and yes, without a doubt, men are less likely in general to criticize a woman, because they think that the woman cant handle it. dont fault the men for it though. its just society, and face it, the women usually cant handle it. its just how theyre raised. try telling a girl she needs to lose some weight. she will run away sobbing or give you a black eye.
pharren
21 years ago
i suspect so as well. i dont know if it makes any differences in the feel of the guild, because the feel of the guild is something so different from any of the guilds on sol ro ive been a part of, so its hard for me to say. that goes beyond "apples and oranges", thats like comparing eating an apple to drinking orange juice. the two are just not even in the same category. whatever it is, it works.
I suspect your guild is a fucking miracle Pharren Very Happy. I noticed you had other women in key positions in addition to your guild leader. Do you think it makes any difference in the feel of the guild?
i suspect so as well. i dont know if it makes any differences in the feel of the guild, because the feel of the guild is something so different from any of the guilds on sol ro ive been a part of, so its hard for me to say. that goes beyond "apples and oranges", thats like comparing eating an apple to drinking orange juice. the two are just not even in the same category. whatever it is, it works.
Verileah
21 years ago
I can understand not wanting to get yelled at I guess. I figured the worst that could happen was the woman in question would cry or something and really, that's not the end of the world. You're right, though, I guess it's not fair to blame the men when they're just worried they might lose an eye or something.
Good point on the cultural stuff...I know I was a barbie doll girl. As far as the genetic stuff...hmm, guys are supposedly better with spacial relationships, but I don't know if that applies in a video game. I'm curious about that now. Are men known for being better at making quick decisions?
Interesting, good points.
and yes, without a doubt, men are less likely in general to criticize a woman, because they think that the woman cant handle it. dont fault the men for it though. its just society, and face it, the women usually cant handle it. its just how theyre raised. try telling a girl she needs to lose some weight. she will run away sobbing or give you a black eye.
I can understand not wanting to get yelled at I guess. I figured the worst that could happen was the woman in question would cry or something and really, that's not the end of the world. You're right, though, I guess it's not fair to blame the men when they're just worried they might lose an eye or something.
another thing is the general lack of skills. this is likely to be changing with our generation and beyond, but in general women do not grow up cultivating the skills used in video games. hand-eye coordination. quick critical decision making. hell, women are playing with barbie dolls and learning how to cook and clean while men are playing video games or football. men play sports where it is required to adapt and play as a team, and make split second decisions while knowing your place and your role in the battlefield. this is probably a social/cultural thing as well, but maybe even genetic. just like different species of animals are bred to behave a certain way... dogs for example. sheepdogs have a built-in talent for herding. labradors have a built-in talent for retrieving. terriers have a built-in talent for being fucking annoying little yap yap dogs.
Good point on the cultural stuff...I know I was a barbie doll girl. As far as the genetic stuff...hmm, guys are supposedly better with spacial relationships, but I don't know if that applies in a video game. I'm curious about that now. Are men known for being better at making quick decisions?
Interesting, good points.
drizzi
21 years ago
Verileah
...other things mattered to me more.