Seriously, what the ?!!!
http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/story/5620408p-5048382c.html
Kyle Moore of Milton dropped his 14-year-old daughter, Melissa, off at a Tacoma bowling alley Friday night, knowing she was meeting up with older friends for a ride to a dance party in Seattle, one with a zombie theme.
He didn’t kiss her for fear of smearing her black and white makeup – a get-up that would enable her to get into the “Better Off Undead†rave for a discounted price, $15. He didn’t hug her for fear of getting the makeup on himself.
But he did tell her he loved her as she left the car, and he’s thankful for that. The next morning, the ninth-grader at Columbia Junior High in Fife became the youngest of six people massacred by a gunman who then took his own life.
She had recently been out all night for a St. Patrick’s Day rave. She always called, and she always came home when she said she would. He said he tried to be a cool dad, so that Melissa and Cameron, 16, would be open with him.
Sometimes, it worked: She admitted she smoked pot on occasion, but promised him she didn’t drink or do the harder drugs available in the rave scene.
Seriously what the hell? She was 14, going to Seattle, from Tacoma, for a party. What parent says that having their kid drive about 30 miles to go to an all night party is the a good thing? I'd rather have a resentful teenaged daughter grounded all the time rather be a cool dad. Fuck that.
Honestly, as a dad, I feel bad that someone's daughter was killed, but on the other hand as an adult who is a parent I have ZERO sympathy for the man. He knew that the situations that his daughter was getting into were going to be inherently dangerous. Damn rave party with people that were 17-22. It is people like this that should not have children, because being a parent is not about being cool or understanding, its about passing on your experiences and guiding your kids into adulthood until they are responsible enought to make their own informed decisions.
14, for fucks sakes.
Dia
20 years ago
michigan. raves are illegal not concerts or festivals. we have an electronic musical festival every year downtown detroit in heart plaza, heavy loaded with police. We have promoters for clubs and bars all of which are 21+. I stick with 14 yr olds dont belong in place or situations like that. Hell who wants a 14 year old there anyways? Thats like going to canadian bars when your american and over 21. No one wants to party with teenagers and you feel like a flamer for even being there.
Gylius
20 years ago
There are at least 2 people in this thread that stated they did not have any sympathy with the father. Vebran and Mylec. In which case my post was not directed towards you, sorry if it seemed that way.
And I've never really thought myself to really care much about people I don't know, but with that, I cannot imagine what the death of a child would feel like and I'm 21 (YEARS away from any kind of non-accidental pregnancy). I'm not going to automatically write him off because he made a mistake. People make mistakes, I'm sure he's going to feel bad enough as is for the rest of his life and maybe never forgive himself.
ROzbeans
Hi Gylius.
There are at least 2 people in this thread that stated they did not have any sympathy with the father. Vebran and Mylec. In which case my post was not directed towards you, sorry if it seemed that way.
And I've never really thought myself to really care much about people I don't know, but with that, I cannot imagine what the death of a child would feel like and I'm 21 (YEARS away from any kind of non-accidental pregnancy). I'm not going to automatically write him off because he made a mistake. People make mistakes, I'm sure he's going to feel bad enough as is for the rest of his life and maybe never forgive himself.
Draegloth
20 years ago
it is inappropriate to judge anyone else's actions. he is not imposing his will on any of us, and he is not suggesting that his way is the only way, yet people are judging him. why is that? I suggest that it is out of fear that those of you that judge him do so. you fear being in his situation, and must reassure yourself by proclaiming that you would never act that way, thereby alleviating the mental burden you have given yourself.
let that go and see this man as a grieving father, and have compassion for him. see his daughter as a normal teenager wanting to be free and grow, and have compassion for her. do not judge either of them, for it does absolutely no good to anyone involved.
let that go and see this man as a grieving father, and have compassion for him. see his daughter as a normal teenager wanting to be free and grow, and have compassion for her. do not judge either of them, for it does absolutely no good to anyone involved.
Vulash
20 years ago
I think my whole point is. Whether or not he should let his 14 year old go to a party is irrelevant. Her death wasn't because of that - it could have happened anywhere and is completely unrelated even though the two are connected in this particular circumstance. I think you could argue letting her go to a party at 14 is irresponsible because she "may" be exposed to harsher elements like drugs, sex, alcohol, but not that it raised the odds of a wild gunmen mowing her down as 1 of 6 which could have happened anywhere.
Dia
20 years ago
i think we are all entitled to our opinions and thats why the thread was started. Vebran had an opinion and chose to be like wtf. This wasnt a 'please put them in your prayers post' it was a discussion. Some of us have daughters who arent there yet, some have daughters who have been that age already, and some have no kids. Doesnt make anyones opinion less important. Thats why we raise our own children and not each others =p. Vebran happens to be a person of strong opinions from what i noticed so flaming him for not caring about the dads feelings is a bit ridiculous. You dont agree you say your piece and hopefully not bitch at someone else for theirs during the process.
i hope this doesnt end up like the parents board i lurk at. Watching people insist on proving their opinion is better is fun but it gets old fast. its ok to be different.
i hope this doesnt end up like the parents board i lurk at. Watching people insist on proving their opinion is better is fun but it gets old fast. its ok to be different.
Vebran
20 years ago
I completely disagree, in fact in today's touchy feely world this is something that I hate the most.
"You can't judge him, blah, blah"
Yes I can. There is a right and wrong and this was clearly wrong. As a result of his actions his daughter was put into a situation that resulted in her death. You can play coulda, shoulda, woulda, but his parenting enabled the daughter to enter into this situation. Tell me otherwise, because the results are right there for all to read.
I can't judge someone on their decision to have their kid play soccer, learn a second language, learn how to shoot a gun, etc (as long as the appropriate safety measures are there and followed).
Another way to follow this is how you think of a parent who relies on faith healing to cure a child a disease in which there cure available?
I'll say it again. Children do not have the capability to do the proper risk vs. reward analysis of a given situation.
Draegloth
it is inappropriate to judge anyone else's actions..
I completely disagree, in fact in today's touchy feely world this is something that I hate the most.
"You can't judge him, blah, blah"
Yes I can. There is a right and wrong and this was clearly wrong. As a result of his actions his daughter was put into a situation that resulted in her death. You can play coulda, shoulda, woulda, but his parenting enabled the daughter to enter into this situation. Tell me otherwise, because the results are right there for all to read.
I can't judge someone on their decision to have their kid play soccer, learn a second language, learn how to shoot a gun, etc (as long as the appropriate safety measures are there and followed).
Another way to follow this is how you think of a parent who relies on faith healing to cure a child a disease in which there cure available?
I'll say it again. Children do not have the capability to do the proper risk vs. reward analysis of a given situation.
Gylius
20 years ago
Well then let me ask you a question Vebran. There are 40,000 automobile deaths a year in the united states. That's around 10ish times the amount of gun related deaths per year (including accidental). Do you let your daughter ride in your car when you drive somewhere, or do you walk everywhere? An unforseeable event occured, and I'm guessing, shooting deaths are VERY RARE at raves. It could have been irresponsible, letting his daughter go to a rave at 14, but I feel it's hardly warranted not sympathizing with him.
Draegloth
20 years ago
I did not say you cannot judge, I said it is inappropriate to do so.
Your conception of right and wrong is not the same as someone else's, and judging them by your conception is inappropriate. You say this is clearly wrong, yet it is obviously not clearly wrong because if it was clearly wrong everyone would agree with you. You are seeing this situation through a cloud of your own ego. In order to see the truth of the situation, it is necessary for you to let go of your preconceived notions.
This man may not have made the same choice you did, and if Catherine came to you on her 14th birthday and asked you to drive her to a rendezvous point to meet some friends in order to get a ride with them to an all-night rave, you would probably not do what he did, but to judge his actions as "clearly wrong" is not appropriate. "Clearly not what I would have done," may be a more appropriate thing to say. It is arrogance to assume your ideas of right and wrong are universally true.
Your conception of right and wrong is not the same as someone else's, and judging them by your conception is inappropriate. You say this is clearly wrong, yet it is obviously not clearly wrong because if it was clearly wrong everyone would agree with you. You are seeing this situation through a cloud of your own ego. In order to see the truth of the situation, it is necessary for you to let go of your preconceived notions.
This man may not have made the same choice you did, and if Catherine came to you on her 14th birthday and asked you to drive her to a rendezvous point to meet some friends in order to get a ride with them to an all-night rave, you would probably not do what he did, but to judge his actions as "clearly wrong" is not appropriate. "Clearly not what I would have done," may be a more appropriate thing to say. It is arrogance to assume your ideas of right and wrong are universally true.
Mylec
20 years ago
I guess I dont look at it like he made a mistake, because in his mind I dont think that is how he sees it. A mistake implies that he did something he didnt mean to do. He absolutely intended to let his 14 year old daughter go out of town to an all night rave. Call me old fashioned, but a 14 year old has no business being out all night. Hell, I couldnt pull that stuff in my parent's house even when I was 18. My brother and I both had a midnight curfew. Their logic was flawless, though. You live here, your ass is home by midnight. You want to stay out past midnight, go get your own place.
I'm not going to pull some kind of "its a parent thing, you wouldnt understand" crap. I myself have no children of my own, but in my previous relationship I was a step dad for 4 years and I know there is NO WAY IN HELL I would have let Brittney pull that stuff in my house. The whole "cool dad" thing doesnt bother me. I think its great if you can be a friend to your children, but not at the expense of being a father first. Him letting her go to that party wasnt a mistake to him, it was his philosophy as a father. And it cost his daughter her life. Yes it seems her death was part of a random shooting and tragic accidents happen, but she couldnt have been part of that tragedy if her ass would have been home as it should have been. I guess maybe I feel some empathy for him, but my knee-jerk reaction is to go upside his head.
Gylius
There are at least 2 people in this thread that stated they did not have any sympathy with the father. Vebran and Mylec. In which case my post was not directed towards you, sorry if it seemed that way.
And I've never really thought myself to really care much about people I don't know, but with that, I cannot imagine what the death of a child would feel like and I'm 21 (YEARS away from any kind of non-accidental pregnancy). I'm not going to automatically write him off because he made a mistake. People make mistakes, I'm sure he's going to feel bad enough as is for the rest of his life and maybe never forgive himself.
I guess I dont look at it like he made a mistake, because in his mind I dont think that is how he sees it. A mistake implies that he did something he didnt mean to do. He absolutely intended to let his 14 year old daughter go out of town to an all night rave. Call me old fashioned, but a 14 year old has no business being out all night. Hell, I couldnt pull that stuff in my parent's house even when I was 18. My brother and I both had a midnight curfew. Their logic was flawless, though. You live here, your ass is home by midnight. You want to stay out past midnight, go get your own place.
I'm not going to pull some kind of "its a parent thing, you wouldnt understand" crap. I myself have no children of my own, but in my previous relationship I was a step dad for 4 years and I know there is NO WAY IN HELL I would have let Brittney pull that stuff in my house. The whole "cool dad" thing doesnt bother me. I think its great if you can be a friend to your children, but not at the expense of being a father first. Him letting her go to that party wasnt a mistake to him, it was his philosophy as a father. And it cost his daughter her life. Yes it seems her death was part of a random shooting and tragic accidents happen, but she couldnt have been part of that tragedy if her ass would have been home as it should have been. I guess maybe I feel some empathy for him, but my knee-jerk reaction is to go upside his head.
Sergon
20 years ago
Im going to be a bastard of a father since I know whats out there. I had 0 parenting. My dad offered advice and let me make my own mistakes and yes I got in to alot of stuff I should not have in my teens. I pulled myself out of it but some sort of structure is needed in a childs life. Granted my parents split and my brother died within a 3 yeare period. My folks had no idea what to do with me.
If I have a girl and god help me I dont. Her first date I will sitting in my lounge chair in coaching shorts and a wife beater polishing a shotgun when the kid shows up.
D
If I have a girl and god help me I dont. Her first date I will sitting in my lounge chair in coaching shorts and a wife beater polishing a shotgun when the kid shows up.
D
Dia
20 years ago
rofl sergon
get bike shorts they are tighter!
get bike shorts they are tighter!
Vebran
20 years ago
That is a calculated risk. Exactly the type of one that, as an adult, I can make. The potential risks are accidents(death, injury), but the benefits are getting to work(getting money), reliable transportation to buy food, etc, etc. I can easily analyze that the gains outweigh any potential risks to that activity as I need food and money to survive and the potential negative of going to jail for not reporting to my job.
Explain to me the benefits of going to a rave as a 14 year old?(Actual benefits not theoretical) Then weigh it against potential negatives of death, rape, drug use, injury.
Life is about risk, but calculated risk and minimizing any potential adverse effect of what you are doing. As a parent you are there to help your child weigh these benefits, not to leave them to their own devices and hope that they are mature and able enough to do that for themselves.
Gylius
Well then let me ask you a question Vebran. There are 40,000 automobile deaths a year in the united states. That's around 10ish times the amount of gun related deaths per year (including accidental). Do you let your daughter ride in your car when you drive somewhere, or do you walk everywhere? An unforseeable event occured, and I'm guessing, shooting deaths are VERY RARE at raves. It could have been irresponsible, letting his daughter go to a rave at 14, but I feel it's hardly warranted not sympathizing with him.
That is a calculated risk. Exactly the type of one that, as an adult, I can make. The potential risks are accidents(death, injury), but the benefits are getting to work(getting money), reliable transportation to buy food, etc, etc. I can easily analyze that the gains outweigh any potential risks to that activity as I need food and money to survive and the potential negative of going to jail for not reporting to my job.
Explain to me the benefits of going to a rave as a 14 year old?(Actual benefits not theoretical) Then weigh it against potential negatives of death, rape, drug use, injury.
Life is about risk, but calculated risk and minimizing any potential adverse effect of what you are doing. As a parent you are there to help your child weigh these benefits, not to leave them to their own devices and hope that they are mature and able enough to do that for themselves.
Vulash
20 years ago
That is flawed too though if you ever drive somewhere for entertainment purposes only - a baseball game, soccer practice, ect.
Calimaryn
20 years ago
I did not post yesterday because it was simply not constructive and I doubt it is now, but here it goes. I agree with Draegloth.
Its about compassion. For the young daughter wanting to be part of something generally only accepting of people older than her age. For the father for having his personal parenting choices as a headline. For the family, friends and world for the loss of life, potential and opportunity. Because someone decided to go into a Rave and shoot up the place. This could have happened anywhere. A post office, a mall, a library, a school cafeteria.
Perhaps you would have made a different parenting choice, BUT not knowing the child's personality, interests and maturity nor knowing the household atmosphere, rules and standards, you can only see it from YOUR position. Which seems unlikely to be theirs.
How do we know this was a standard 'rave' when from clues noted in the story (zombie makeup got her $15 off the ticket) it seems to me that it could be a special event that she earned the privledge to attend.
Honestly, my Angel is 12, almost 13. I would have driven her and her friends and returned to pick her up at a prearranged time. Thus I would probably be mourning the loss of her as that father is should a crazy decide to shoot the place up in that time frame. 14 is a good age to being allowing more freedoms, options and perks. At 5 I would not let Angel play in the park behind our place (millitary housing playground between the base housing blocks). At 10, I would have let her go, though peeked out the window occasionally. I think at some point you must trust that the ideals, morals and beliefs you have taught your child are set and let them try them out in the world.
Its just my opinion, everyone is entitled to theirs.
Its about compassion. For the young daughter wanting to be part of something generally only accepting of people older than her age. For the father for having his personal parenting choices as a headline. For the family, friends and world for the loss of life, potential and opportunity. Because someone decided to go into a Rave and shoot up the place. This could have happened anywhere. A post office, a mall, a library, a school cafeteria.
Perhaps you would have made a different parenting choice, BUT not knowing the child's personality, interests and maturity nor knowing the household atmosphere, rules and standards, you can only see it from YOUR position. Which seems unlikely to be theirs.
How do we know this was a standard 'rave' when from clues noted in the story (zombie makeup got her $15 off the ticket) it seems to me that it could be a special event that she earned the privledge to attend.
Honestly, my Angel is 12, almost 13. I would have driven her and her friends and returned to pick her up at a prearranged time. Thus I would probably be mourning the loss of her as that father is should a crazy decide to shoot the place up in that time frame. 14 is a good age to being allowing more freedoms, options and perks. At 5 I would not let Angel play in the park behind our place (millitary housing playground between the base housing blocks). At 10, I would have let her go, though peeked out the window occasionally. I think at some point you must trust that the ideals, morals and beliefs you have taught your child are set and let them try them out in the world.
Its just my opinion, everyone is entitled to theirs.
ROzbeans
20 years ago
No one is saying they're not entitled to their opinion, veb is just giving his, which coincidently is mine as well.
The point is not that he let her go out, but that he let her go out to an age inappropriate event which actually did violate city curfew. The point is that by being a cool father and letting his kid do something that was age inappropriate, ended in her death, one that would have been preventable if he didn't put his kid's good time in front of his parental duty to watch out for her.
Is it sad a father lost his kid, sure. Is it sad that he could've prevented that death by being what *I* think is a responsible parent and not let her go to a rave for kids older than her? Sure is. Yes she could've checked the mail and been gun down, but that's not age inappropriate, is it? That's what Veb's talking about, the calculated risk vs reward.
Is anyone not entitled to an opinion about it, of course not. I'd like to thank everyone for not turning this into a flame and keeping this constructive. =)
The point is not that he let her go out, but that he let her go out to an age inappropriate event which actually did violate city curfew. The point is that by being a cool father and letting his kid do something that was age inappropriate, ended in her death, one that would have been preventable if he didn't put his kid's good time in front of his parental duty to watch out for her.
Is it sad a father lost his kid, sure. Is it sad that he could've prevented that death by being what *I* think is a responsible parent and not let her go to a rave for kids older than her? Sure is. Yes she could've checked the mail and been gun down, but that's not age inappropriate, is it? That's what Veb's talking about, the calculated risk vs reward.
Is anyone not entitled to an opinion about it, of course not. I'd like to thank everyone for not turning this into a flame and keeping this constructive. =)
Sergon
20 years ago
This Just in
The Surgeon General Has Determined "Breathing Causes Cancer"
S
The Surgeon General Has Determined "Breathing Causes Cancer"
S
ROzbeans
20 years ago
Don't be breathing my air, Serg!
Vebran
20 years ago
The first thing I saw was "Sergon" General...
Sergon
This Just in
The Surgeon General Has Determined "Breathing Causes Cancer"
S
The first thing I saw was "Sergon" General...
Gylius
20 years ago
I don't know, maybe I'm just looking at this in a different way then many people. As a kid, my parents pretty much let me do whatever I wanted as long as they knew where I was. If I told them I was going to a party at someone's house they would have been ok with it. I didn't drink at all in high school, and definately no drugs either. So in this situation my parents might have let me go to a rave at like 15 (they trusted me completely), if I actually wanted to go because they felt I was mature enough to make smart decisions.
This could be something that is completely family specific. When my mom was growing up she was cooking dinner for her family at 8. She was earning money playing piano at weddings, at 10. She had real jobs at 13. Now if you're old enough to work a real job that was close to full time and go to school, you should be able to go to a fucking rave if you want. My mom was much more responsible than me at 13 than I am at 21.
At some point you're going to have to cut the umbilical cord and just hope for the best. He trusted his daughter, took a chance, and something 100% unforseeable happened. I can't get the numbers for this, but I'm willing to bet that more people have died from gunshots at schools, at post offices, and a multitude of other places than raves. I just don't understand how you guys can just automatically blame the father for something this random.
This could be something that is completely family specific. When my mom was growing up she was cooking dinner for her family at 8. She was earning money playing piano at weddings, at 10. She had real jobs at 13. Now if you're old enough to work a real job that was close to full time and go to school, you should be able to go to a fucking rave if you want. My mom was much more responsible than me at 13 than I am at 21.
At some point you're going to have to cut the umbilical cord and just hope for the best. He trusted his daughter, took a chance, and something 100% unforseeable happened. I can't get the numbers for this, but I'm willing to bet that more people have died from gunshots at schools, at post offices, and a multitude of other places than raves. I just don't understand how you guys can just automatically blame the father for something this random.
Nektar
20 years ago
I believe the controversy revolves around total lack of sympathy for the victim's father. That's disgraceful in my opinion.
In retrospect, there are many questionable choices my parents made upbringing their child:
1) Letting me watch horror movies as a toddler. "Calculated risk" of me reaching for kitchen knives and chopping everyone up during a birthday party.
2) Leaving me alone in a parking lot for 5 minutes after telling my father I hated him. "Calculated risk" of being kidnapped in the meanwhile.
3) Allowing me to to drink for the very first time at 14 with some family friends in Manchester. "Calculated risk" of alcohol poisoning, or the nearby slot machine ejecting sterling pounds into my retina.
4) Giving me a bottle of Smirnoff for the after-prom party, an age-inappropriate beverage in Maryland. "Calculated risk" of taking the wheel and driving recklessly.
So on and so forth, but they were still acting in my best interests. Enough Catholic discipline to know right from wrong, but yes, sometimes they purposely let me bend the rules. Sometimes they let me assume "unnecessary risks" for the sake of enjoyment and self-discovery.
This one father made a bad call, as I'm sure all parents have at some point or another. So happens this one led to a tragic outcome. But instead of focusing on the cause of the problem - the crime itself - leave it to America to blame everything on bad parenting, peer pressure, video games, Britney Spears, and a million other excuses just as long as the right to own a firearm to defend yourself against the Crown isn't one of them.
ROzbeans
The point is not that he let her go out, but that he let her go out to an age inappropriate event which actually did violate city curfew. The point is that by being a cool father and letting his kid do something that was age inappropriate, ended in her death, one that would have been preventable if he didn't put his kid's good time in front of his parental duty to watch out for her.
I believe the controversy revolves around total lack of sympathy for the victim's father. That's disgraceful in my opinion.
In retrospect, there are many questionable choices my parents made upbringing their child:
1) Letting me watch horror movies as a toddler. "Calculated risk" of me reaching for kitchen knives and chopping everyone up during a birthday party.
2) Leaving me alone in a parking lot for 5 minutes after telling my father I hated him. "Calculated risk" of being kidnapped in the meanwhile.
3) Allowing me to to drink for the very first time at 14 with some family friends in Manchester. "Calculated risk" of alcohol poisoning, or the nearby slot machine ejecting sterling pounds into my retina.
4) Giving me a bottle of Smirnoff for the after-prom party, an age-inappropriate beverage in Maryland. "Calculated risk" of taking the wheel and driving recklessly.
So on and so forth, but they were still acting in my best interests. Enough Catholic discipline to know right from wrong, but yes, sometimes they purposely let me bend the rules. Sometimes they let me assume "unnecessary risks" for the sake of enjoyment and self-discovery.
This one father made a bad call, as I'm sure all parents have at some point or another. So happens this one led to a tragic outcome. But instead of focusing on the cause of the problem - the crime itself - leave it to America to blame everything on bad parenting, peer pressure, video games, Britney Spears, and a million other excuses just as long as the right to own a firearm to defend yourself against the Crown isn't one of them.