I'm sorry but...what the hell is that crazy shit? This is why I'm completely put off by religion...not that I don't have christian beliefs, I do. We teach Catherine about God and ... all that stuff, but the whole Holy Roller Evangelical crazies is what freaks me out. These are our children...these little people are our future - how about we not teach them that its ok to be fantical about God. Don't get me wrong, its a good value system, but watching something like that just disgusts me.
Kid's should be crying over spilled milk, not the coming of christ. Hi, my name is Roz and I'm a heathen.
Jesus Camp Trailer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RNfL6IVWCE
Lemmie say up front that this is not meant to be a christian bashing thread. In fact it really isn't meant to be bashing anything - no hate here. I do, however, have some thoughts on the trailer, though I haven't seen the film in full and admit that I don't have all the information. I think like anything else in media this is probably a slanted look at fundamentalist christians but I...can't say that I doubt organizations like this exist. I don't know that they're as prevalant as the film makes them out to be but yeah, we have all kinds of extremes here.
*thinks* Should we feel threatened by these images? Are the children being harmed/endangered? Where is the line where you say 'this is disturbing'...or are you totally nonpulsed by this?
For me the more 'militant' images were a no brainer - they bothered me, a lot, though I admit it's possible there is a context for these things. But honestly, the little charasmatic boy disturbed me just as much...and I don't know if that's fair :\. This is probably going to sound horribly bigotted but charasmatics make me a little bit uncomfortable, generally speaking. The children's voice overs just struck me as coached, and that might not be fair either. I don't know if they're being harmed by this but I wouldn't want to send my kid there.
Do you think it's possible for the United States to become a country run by relgious extreamists? Has it already happened?
Anyway, this is mostly just my O_O reaction. Again, please no hate. I'm doing my best to be respectful toward Christians (a vast group of which we are looking at a tiny sample imo) but if this becomes a problem I'll take it down.
ROzbeans
19 years ago
Sarah
19 years ago
These types of images disturb me as much as children wearing swasticas and making the Hiel Hitler, or boys walking dusty roads in Africa and the Middle East carrying AK47's and being proud to do such a service for their country, small girls in camps making munitions for their brothers to shoot with, or any other fanatical group that uses their children in such ways.
So many people make miniature versions of themselves out of the children they've been blessed with. I find myself at a loss for words as I watch such horrifying images of children being used like that in our own country.
Aren't we aupposed to be the enlightened ones?
So many people make miniature versions of themselves out of the children they've been blessed with. I find myself at a loss for words as I watch such horrifying images of children being used like that in our own country.
Aren't we aupposed to be the enlightened ones?
Verileah
19 years ago
I just don't know if this situation is equivocal to the nazis :\. It certainly feels ominous but really we're getting a very small and heavily edited glimpse of the situation. I don't think we can deny that this kind of thing is -possible-, though...so I suppose it's a matter of extent.
Vulash
19 years ago
Some of the images that you thought were "militant" are merely skits. I've seen a lot of them and was even in a mime team once. We wore camo paints with mime face and black shirt - the camo was just because of whatever the name was we called ourselves - there was nothing military about it we just did little skits to music /shrug.
A few things though. And let me preface by saying that I do not consider myself a christian.
First is. If you're going to be a christian - be a christian. Do what the bible teaches - don't halfass it and say "well I didn't want to look fanatical". The bible teaches to live your life for God, and spread the word. Basically it teaches to devote your entire life to him - the rest is unimportant. If you're going to follow the bible - follow it. Don't create your own restrictions so you can fit into society nice and snugly. I do not follow it. But this is the defense for people that do.
Second is. And you aren't teaching your kid to be a copy of you? (you may not specifically, but most people do just that). If you are a hardcore christian, how would you not raise your child that way? Would you teach him all there was to the bible, then whip out the old koran, and then the satanist bible, and then.....see my point? It isn't just happening with fanatics - it happens in 99% of homes. We just don't think much of it because the adults way of life is considered normal, so we consider how they teach their kids (their exact way of life) is normal. So when the adults way of life is not normal, they are teaching their kids that way of life - it's what they know - but suddenly we think they are exposing their children and raising them in fanatical ways. I don't think I'm being clear - maybe someone more verbose can get my point across. Anyway I'm basically saying it's a flawed logic, and veiled hippocritical.
Now I haven't seen the movie - but what I *would* think was wrong would be brainwashing. There is a difference, and it's very possible that is what we're seeing in segments of this video. That I do think is wrong, and I think that would change the definition of what we are seeing from christian to cultist.
I'm not sure which the video is, but I thought the other side of the debate deserved a voice since it seemed very heavily one sided so far.
A few things though. And let me preface by saying that I do not consider myself a christian.
First is. If you're going to be a christian - be a christian. Do what the bible teaches - don't halfass it and say "well I didn't want to look fanatical". The bible teaches to live your life for God, and spread the word. Basically it teaches to devote your entire life to him - the rest is unimportant. If you're going to follow the bible - follow it. Don't create your own restrictions so you can fit into society nice and snugly. I do not follow it. But this is the defense for people that do.
Second is. And you aren't teaching your kid to be a copy of you? (you may not specifically, but most people do just that). If you are a hardcore christian, how would you not raise your child that way? Would you teach him all there was to the bible, then whip out the old koran, and then the satanist bible, and then.....see my point? It isn't just happening with fanatics - it happens in 99% of homes. We just don't think much of it because the adults way of life is considered normal, so we consider how they teach their kids (their exact way of life) is normal. So when the adults way of life is not normal, they are teaching their kids that way of life - it's what they know - but suddenly we think they are exposing their children and raising them in fanatical ways. I don't think I'm being clear - maybe someone more verbose can get my point across. Anyway I'm basically saying it's a flawed logic, and veiled hippocritical.
Now I haven't seen the movie - but what I *would* think was wrong would be brainwashing. There is a difference, and it's very possible that is what we're seeing in segments of this video. That I do think is wrong, and I think that would change the definition of what we are seeing from christian to cultist.
I'm not sure which the video is, but I thought the other side of the debate deserved a voice since it seemed very heavily one sided so far.
Mai
19 years ago
Living like a Christian is a very good goal if you're a Christian. I do agree that walking the walk should be foremost for any path a person devotes themself to. However, from the bible's example, Jesus was never militant and he never forced his views on others. He journeyed, taught and performed miracles where ever he went. There was no walking around holier than thou, and little of the finger pointing and you're wrong for believing the way you do. If Christians believe the bible is correct then bear witness, especially through example, but also remember not to judge lest ye be judged.
From a witnessed to stand point... The first reaction to someone saying 'you're wrong, you're a sinner and you're going to hell unless you do as I say.' generally gets a 'Screw you and the sanctimonious horse you rode in on.' There are better ways to show that your spiritual path is working and therefore worth looking into. Being pushy causes people to push back or tune out what is said.
The trailer itself isn't really disturbing. I went to worse as a kid. These looked much more life affirming than the ones I went to actually. There were some revivals that caused me to have nightmares as a child. Seriously, violent and frightening, they used the fear factor to try and save all the kids there. That to me wasn't Christian of them either, it was disturbing and thoughtless to scare the wits out of little kids ( I was six ) by yelling, screaming, smashing records and tvs while wearing a devil costume, saying such evils will cause you to burn in hell for all eternity.
From a witnessed to stand point... The first reaction to someone saying 'you're wrong, you're a sinner and you're going to hell unless you do as I say.' generally gets a 'Screw you and the sanctimonious horse you rode in on.' There are better ways to show that your spiritual path is working and therefore worth looking into. Being pushy causes people to push back or tune out what is said.
The trailer itself isn't really disturbing. I went to worse as a kid. These looked much more life affirming than the ones I went to actually. There were some revivals that caused me to have nightmares as a child. Seriously, violent and frightening, they used the fear factor to try and save all the kids there. That to me wasn't Christian of them either, it was disturbing and thoughtless to scare the wits out of little kids ( I was six ) by yelling, screaming, smashing records and tvs while wearing a devil costume, saying such evils will cause you to burn in hell for all eternity.
Masoyama
19 years ago
I think I could make a shocking video of 2 mins. The kids would all be inner city. They would all be playing games were you kill each other. THe kids would learn to read and a super early age, and they would be internet hackers. The kids would be able to hack pron sites at 11, and would be expert marksmen by the time they were twelve. They would go to school in long black trench coats. And would base all their pride and loyalty depending on what EQ guild they belong to.
- You could make anything out to be any slant you want with a 2 min clip. But if I had to take a side with the poorly raised crack kids in the city who are growing up to be thugs versus a crazy fanatical group who urges people to believe in Jesus.
... I think I am having to go with Jesus.
My buddy son (11) went out on a summer camp this year. Each kids had to bring camping gear, face paint, paint ball gun, and a hunting rifle. They played wr games, taught them how to do karate, and ended it with a good ol deer killin. Were the new kids got to do the dressin ...
There all types of scary in this world. Maybe Ill re-post some of the Palestinian kids schools.
- You could make anything out to be any slant you want with a 2 min clip. But if I had to take a side with the poorly raised crack kids in the city who are growing up to be thugs versus a crazy fanatical group who urges people to believe in Jesus.
... I think I am having to go with Jesus.
My buddy son (11) went out on a summer camp this year. Each kids had to bring camping gear, face paint, paint ball gun, and a hunting rifle. They played wr games, taught them how to do karate, and ended it with a good ol deer killin. Were the new kids got to do the dressin ...
There all types of scary in this world. Maybe Ill re-post some of the Palestinian kids schools.
blazyn
19 years ago
People can be as extreme in their beliefs as they want, and it doesnt bother me one bit. But when sects see it cut and dry and judge those who dont share the same beliefs drives me freaking nuts. This weekend the Westboro Baptist Church (www.godhatesfags.com) from Kansas came down to picket a good friend of mine's brothers funeral. His mother who was already having a huge time dealing with the death of her son couldn't understand why these people wanted to make things that much harder for this family He died in Iraq, and they felt it necessary to bring signs and posters saying shit like "God Hates Fags" "Thank God for dead soldiers" "Fags burn in hell" to his funeral and burial. . They had like 8-10 year old kids singing songs that were so freaking offensive. If that is how "God" wants his followers to act then I'd rather go to hell.
Vulash
19 years ago
Mae I agree with what you said. I didn't see that in the video though. I don't think you did either though from your last paragraph.
ROzbeans
19 years ago
Agree with what, that I'm a heathen? This is true.
Verileah
19 years ago
You guys are so sensible in balancing out my knee jerk reactions :D. Nice to hear all these different PoVs
Vulash
19 years ago
No wait, I agreed with the wrong Mai! I can agree you're a heathen if you want me to though :P
Mai
19 years ago
Nope, I didn't see that from the video. What I was saying was that this was much more mild than my own personal experience with Christian camps,seminars and revivals. I have been to some that were decent and nuturing but many, especially in my early years were terrifying.
As far as taking this camp over living in the streets, I don't think many of us are saying that this was a worse option. I -do- know a lot of narrow minded mean spirited people who grew up from those camps that I went to. I also know the ones who rebeled, ran away and became the very worst things their parents raged against. Extremist behavior tends to breed extremist behavior either for or against the source.
In my case, I came from a home of less than perfect divorced family so I got different views that balanced each other out. I am probably not sane either but I think I hide it better ;)
*points at Roz* Heathen!
Has anyone actually seen the movie?
As far as taking this camp over living in the streets, I don't think many of us are saying that this was a worse option. I -do- know a lot of narrow minded mean spirited people who grew up from those camps that I went to. I also know the ones who rebeled, ran away and became the very worst things their parents raged against. Extremist behavior tends to breed extremist behavior either for or against the source.
In my case, I came from a home of less than perfect divorced family so I got different views that balanced each other out. I am probably not sane either but I think I hide it better ;)
*points at Roz* Heathen!
Has anyone actually seen the movie?