Christians doing the "right thing"
http://www.mail.com/Article.aspx/world/0/APNews/General-World-News/20100131/U_CB-Haiti-Americans-Detained?pageid=1
Im pretty sure that is called kidnapping.
Den
14 years ago
I think their intentions were good, but yes, they went about it poorly.
tamaelia
14 years ago
Not just poorly... boggles the mind really that some people think they can flout other countries laws just because they perceive inadequacies in the system. It just isn't right.
Vulash
14 years ago
The article wasn't very clear so it was hard to tell. It could easily have been a case of them trying to help with the large numbers of children that no have no place to go because of the recent tragedy, or it could be a case of them feeling they knew best and putting their nose in where it didn't belong and kidnapping kids. I just really couldn't tell from the article so I can't really judge the situation.
Kelefane
14 years ago
You just know that there are some crooked things going on behind the scene during this. Some of these kids are probably being sold/auctioned off in some cases...and for lord knows what.
Aniyah
14 years ago
What is it they say about the road to hell? Something about being paved with best intentions...? I'm terrible with quotes!
Vulash
14 years ago
I'm just making the point we don't know anything. Quite a bit of assumption so far.
Jazzine
14 years ago
Kidnapping? really??!!
what interesting assumptions you make...
I wonder... are you a citizen of Haiti? Have you been inside the country since the earthquake? Are you a member of the church/group that sanctioned the trip of those now arrested?
If the answer to any of those is no, then you might want to move off of that shaky limb you are on....
nothing personal, I dont even know you, but isnt it possible you might have been a little quick to make a conclusion in this case?
what interesting assumptions you make...
I wonder... are you a citizen of Haiti? Have you been inside the country since the earthquake? Are you a member of the church/group that sanctioned the trip of those now arrested?
If the answer to any of those is no, then you might want to move off of that shaky limb you are on....
nothing personal, I dont even know you, but isnt it possible you might have been a little quick to make a conclusion in this case?
ROzbeans
14 years ago
I suppose that's the point Vulash is trying to make, but without the sarcasm =x
Kelefane
14 years ago
Are you a citizen of Haiti? Have you been inside the country since the earthquake? Are you a member of the church that sanctioned the trip etc? Do you have inside info of what is actually going on there?
Its a fucking two way street here. Anything anyone says on either side of the fence is pure speculation.
fact is, you dont know for sure and neither do I - So the limb you are swinging on is as shaky as the one I am on. Only I think my stance holds a bit more merit since none of this was done properly to begin with.
but where I stand, IMO, taking children out of their culture and indoctrinating them into your belief system without them having a choice should be a huge offense on its own anyway .I really dislike religious "help" when it comes with caveats like having to partake in their religion, when that religion claims that their god loves everyone equally etc.
The "religious" group doing this however, didnt go through the proper channels or do the proper paperwork during this endeavor. Where I come from, that is crooked and unprofessional no matter which way you slice it. There are some shady undertones going on here.
Jazzine;93453
Kidnapping? really??!!
what interesting assumptions you make...
I wonder... are you a citizen of Haiti? Have you been inside the country since the earthquake? Are you a member of the church/group that sanctioned the trip of those now arrested?
If the answer to any of those is no, then you might want to move off of that shaky limb you are on....
nothing personal, I dont even know you, but isnt it possible you might have been a little quick to make a conclusion in this case?
Are you a citizen of Haiti? Have you been inside the country since the earthquake? Are you a member of the church that sanctioned the trip etc? Do you have inside info of what is actually going on there?
Its a fucking two way street here. Anything anyone says on either side of the fence is pure speculation.
fact is, you dont know for sure and neither do I - So the limb you are swinging on is as shaky as the one I am on. Only I think my stance holds a bit more merit since none of this was done properly to begin with.
but where I stand, IMO, taking children out of their culture and indoctrinating them into your belief system without them having a choice should be a huge offense on its own anyway .I really dislike religious "help" when it comes with caveats like having to partake in their religion, when that religion claims that their god loves everyone equally etc.
The "religious" group doing this however, didnt go through the proper channels or do the proper paperwork during this endeavor. Where I come from, that is crooked and unprofessional no matter which way you slice it. There are some shady undertones going on here.
pharren
14 years ago
I doubt they were up to anything shady, but really... not smart. And bad timing. I can believe they really didn't know anything about kids being kidnapped and sold and all that. And I don't think they were necessarily trying to break the rules, like "we are doing the Lord's work and we don't care what anyone says". They probably thought they were being heroes. Right after saving the poor children of Haiti, they were going to spread The Word to the four corners of the world, and blah blah blah... idealists.
Kelefane
14 years ago
I'd define them as zealots.
pharren
14 years ago
They didn't look too zealous in that photo of them in custody!
Vulash
14 years ago
It's not a two way street when neither of us made those assumptions. I'm not on a shaky limb.
I didn't see caveats in that article either.
This entire topic is close to crossing a line - You posted - you made assumptions that the article doesn't support, and now you're lumping this in with all religious help. I'm positive there are people that post here of many religions, and many of no religion - I'm just not sure what purpose this can serve from here on out. It's rather inflammatory - it isn't like we are maturely discussing the topic, you're getting upset and making accusations based on your gut almost immediately.
Kelefane;93513
Are you a citizen of Haiti? Have you been inside the country since the earthquake? Are you a member of the church that sanctioned the trip etc? Do you have inside info of what is actually going on there?
Its a fucking two way street here. Anything anyone says on either side of the fence is pure speculation.
fact is, you dont know for sure and neither do I - So the limb you are swinging on is as shaky as the one I am on. Only I think my stance holds a bit more merit since none of this was done properly to begin with.
but where I stand, IMO, taking children out of their culture and indoctrinating them into your belief system without them having a choice should be a huge offense on its own anyway .I really dislike religious "help" when it comes with caveats like having to partake in their religion, when that religion claims that their god loves everyone equally etc.
The "religious" group doing this however, didnt go through the proper channels or do the proper paperwork during this endeavor. Where I come from, that is crooked and unprofessional no matter which way you slice it. There are some shady undertones going on here.
It's not a two way street when neither of us made those assumptions. I'm not on a shaky limb.
I didn't see caveats in that article either.
This entire topic is close to crossing a line - You posted - you made assumptions that the article doesn't support, and now you're lumping this in with all religious help. I'm positive there are people that post here of many religions, and many of no religion - I'm just not sure what purpose this can serve from here on out. It's rather inflammatory - it isn't like we are maturely discussing the topic, you're getting upset and making accusations based on your gut almost immediately.
Gongaa
14 years ago
I doubt what these people were doing was done with bad intentions.
That being said, the whole mentality behind missionary work has always struck me as disgustingly ethnocentric, and I think it's disturbing that it's as overwhelmingly accepted as it is. Doing humanitarian work is one thing. Doing it with the condition or expectation that people convert to a specific set of tribal or cultural beliefs is another thing entirely.
That being said, the whole mentality behind missionary work has always struck me as disgustingly ethnocentric, and I think it's disturbing that it's as overwhelmingly accepted as it is. Doing humanitarian work is one thing. Doing it with the condition or expectation that people convert to a specific set of tribal or cultural beliefs is another thing entirely.
Vulash
14 years ago
I don't know any missionaries that set a condition or even an expectation. The ones I've known, and when I did some missionary work in Mexico myself, we were just trying to help - and hoping that we could touch someone. I am no longer religious, but even looking back I don't know any missionaries that were pushing - most just wanted to help. They talk to those that are willing, and don't push those that aren't. I'm sure there are some exceptions of course.
I'm not saying what these people did was right by any means - I'm just saying that article failed to answer a lot of important questions we would need to have any rational clue what really went on. Phrases like "you know they were..." are just another way of saying "I have no clue what happened but I'm going to act like it was this to support my own anger..."
I'm not saying what these people did was right by any means - I'm just saying that article failed to answer a lot of important questions we would need to have any rational clue what really went on. Phrases like "you know they were..." are just another way of saying "I have no clue what happened but I'm going to act like it was this to support my own anger..."
Gongaa
14 years ago
The fact alone that missionaries try to "spread the word" of their beliefs implies a belief that their audience has something to gain by converting. Thus, their religious belief system is superior to the one that has helped shape the native culture. Since I also seriously doubt that that kind of behavior is unmotivated, it would seem to be well within the bounds of reason to say that they're hoping to affect some kind of change in their host society.
I don't mean to say that missionaries sit around in tents at night drawing up diagrams of how they're gonna convert the most people in the least amount of time. I do, however, think that there is an arrogance involved - whether it's naive or calculating is irrelevant - that is inexcusable.
I don't mean to say that missionaries sit around in tents at night drawing up diagrams of how they're gonna convert the most people in the least amount of time. I do, however, think that there is an arrogance involved - whether it's naive or calculating is irrelevant - that is inexcusable.
Vulash
14 years ago
That is very different than what you said though. I agree that most religions, almost by definition, are ethnocentric. That's another discussion though and I'm not looking to get off track here. I have a feeling this thread is going to get out of control, and I think maybe I'll just bow out.
Gongaa;93558
The fact alone that missionaries try to "spread the word" of their beliefs implies a belief that their audience has something to gain by converting. Thus, their religious belief system is superior to the one that has helped shape the native culture. Since I also seriously doubt that that kind of behavior is unmotivated, it would seem to be well within the bounds of reason to say that they're hoping to affect some kind of change in their host society.
I don't mean to say that missionaries sit around in tents at night drawing up diagrams of how they're gonna convert the most people in the least amount of time. I do, however, think that there is an arrogance involved - whether it's naive or calculating is irrelevant - that is inexcusable.
That is very different than what you said though. I agree that most religions, almost by definition, are ethnocentric. That's another discussion though and I'm not looking to get off track here. I have a feeling this thread is going to get out of control, and I think maybe I'll just bow out.
Verileah
14 years ago
Sort of off topic - I'm hearing that church groups and other charitable organizations are now being asked to stop sending volunteers unless they either have disaster relief training or Creole language training. Even people who have medical training are being turned away. There is too much work to do for people to be 'volunteer tourists' who need to be babysat/bailed out of situations that tend to arise when you're dealing with a foreign government. So (as far as I know) most groups that would ordinarily want to send volunteers are instead sending money and supplies.
Anyway, I just thought that was interesting. I think if I were down there I might feel pretty out of my depth, not knowing who in that corrupt mess of a government to listen to, trying to navigate a system I don't understand that overlays a mindset I understand even less. And then, if I were Haitian, I think I would be pretty pissed off at what sure looks like people (who came into my country claiming to help!) taking advantage of the situation.
Anyway, I just thought that was interesting. I think if I were down there I might feel pretty out of my depth, not knowing who in that corrupt mess of a government to listen to, trying to navigate a system I don't understand that overlays a mindset I understand even less. And then, if I were Haitian, I think I would be pretty pissed off at what sure looks like people (who came into my country claiming to help!) taking advantage of the situation.
Gongaa
14 years ago
All righty. Moi aussi.
Vulash;93559
I'll just bow out.
All righty. Moi aussi.
Kelefane
14 years ago
My point was - Its all assumption really until something more concrete is known. But that doesnt defeat the fact that these people didnt go through the proper channels or paperwork to do what they did. Once you go in shady, everything will look shady. No matter what your intentions are.
I mean, you dont go to the local jail to bail your friend out with a handgun and C4 vested across your chest.
Vulash;93551
It's not a two way street when neither of us made those assumptions. I'm not on a shaky limb.
I didn't see caveats in that article either.
This entire topic is close to crossing a line - You posted - you made assumptions that the article doesn't support, and now you're lumping this in with all religious help. I'm positive there are people that post here of many religions, and many of no religion - I'm just not sure what purpose this can serve from here on out. It's rather inflammatory - it isn't like we are maturely discussing the topic, you're getting upset and making accusations based on your gut almost immediately.
My point was - Its all assumption really until something more concrete is known. But that doesnt defeat the fact that these people didnt go through the proper channels or paperwork to do what they did. Once you go in shady, everything will look shady. No matter what your intentions are.
I mean, you dont go to the local jail to bail your friend out with a handgun and C4 vested across your chest.