Pharren, I dont think men or women should be able to decide to up and leave there children. This is not to say I'm not for adoption, i think it is more acceptable to decide such things at birth when the baby is not developing memories as strong as say the 3 or 5 years. She has altered their life drastically and build a shakey foundation for them to grow upon. Hopefully she hasn't created a plethora of abandonment issues in them that will lead to them being unable to sustain relationships in the future. Biologically I believe we have the urge to protect children because they can't protect themselves. I don't know if if its more acceptable for men to leave kids behind and I think generally it's not a double standard thing except to say it's harder to understand why a mother left her children. Biologically men "spread their seed" with a bunch of women back in the caveman days to ensure their lineage soooo maybe that could account for the somewhat more acceptability that a man leaves? I could be wrong. There is a lot of theories on that type of things =)
Lessa, I hate having to wait a year!!!!! I know she's been releasing chapters on her website but I've been waiting.
I didn't read the newest Sherrilyn Kenyon book back and august and I'm happy to say i dont have a short wait for when I do read it lol.
Roz - I have the PalmPre which is now the Hp Pre? Anyways it's allright for a smart phone. I've been pretty happy with it and the battery used to last a lot longer than it does now. It lasted a day for sure, now i broke off the charger port door and it seems to have half a day life. It has a qwerty keyboard that pulls out and it's still a small phone. That was my selling point. The Droid was too huge. It has a touch screen as well.
Issues : some of the keys tend to stick on both my and my fiances phones. Like the Y and H ect. I dont know if this is all of the models tho or just ours.
Probablly not the fastest OS out there
Pluses: Small, qwerty Keyboard, can have more than 1 app running at a time, can talk and surf the web (speaker phone)
I want a new phone because about every year I want a new phone and now we can have an Iphone =(
Say Anything.
'Say Anything' is a John Cusak/Cameron Crowe 1989 teen flick. ' A noble underachiever and a beautiful valedictorian fall in love the summer before she goes off to college.' This is actually not what this thread is about, but the message is the same.
Actually no it isn't, I just like imdb.com and the title sounded interesting. /snort
This is not necessarily a vent thread - far from it. This is about saying anything - weather, the bird outside your work window, the fundamental differences between Mormons and catholics, how Law and Order Criminal Intent doesn't get the props it deserves, that I always forget whether it's 'it's' or 'its', that my daughter has a beautiful smile and the first guy that breaks her heart - I'm breaking his knees...it's about anything.
So, say anything.
Dia
15 years ago
pharren
15 years ago
But why is it harder to understand? That's what I want to know.
That's pretty much what I think, too, but I wonder, without having ever been exposed to some naturally-occuring culture that has never been tainted by ours (e.g., some aboriginees out in the rain forest or Austrailian outback), if I am just rationalizing an otherwise irrational hypothesis. Like, maybe in some tribe somewhere, it's perfectly acceptable for a mother to leave her children, but if the father does, he is branded a social outcast.
I guess I'll keep rolling with the evolutionary explanation, because it fits so many other situations as well, but then my question becomes "How do we decide which 'evolutionary' aspects of our personal and social lives are acceptable and which aren't?", and that's a whole other discussion that I don't even think anyone possibly can have answers to.
And I agree that she's damaged her children psychologically. I'm sure they've adjusted, but that's something they're going to deal with for the rest of their lives. Way to leave your children during the most critical years of their development, stupid!
Oh, they will probably be able to have relationships just fine... unhealthy relationships like the ones you see on Jerry Springer.
I think generally it's not a double standard thing except to say it's harder to understand why a mother left her children.
But why is it harder to understand? That's what I want to know.
Biologically men "spread their seed" with a bunch of women back in the caveman days to ensure their lineage
That's pretty much what I think, too, but I wonder, without having ever been exposed to some naturally-occuring culture that has never been tainted by ours (e.g., some aboriginees out in the rain forest or Austrailian outback), if I am just rationalizing an otherwise irrational hypothesis. Like, maybe in some tribe somewhere, it's perfectly acceptable for a mother to leave her children, but if the father does, he is branded a social outcast.
I guess I'll keep rolling with the evolutionary explanation, because it fits so many other situations as well, but then my question becomes "How do we decide which 'evolutionary' aspects of our personal and social lives are acceptable and which aren't?", and that's a whole other discussion that I don't even think anyone possibly can have answers to.
And I agree that she's damaged her children psychologically. I'm sure they've adjusted, but that's something they're going to deal with for the rest of their lives. Way to leave your children during the most critical years of their development, stupid!
Hopefully she hasn't created a plethora of abandonment issues in them that will lead to them being unable to sustain relationships in the future.
Oh, they will probably be able to have relationships just fine... unhealthy relationships like the ones you see on Jerry Springer.
Wystro
15 years ago
My own mother left when I was five, and I can say that I definitely felt the effect. At that age, I didn't think my mother was mixed up. I thought that I just didn't have that little beacon that draws a mother to me. In my younger years, I had this ghost-like feeling -- slightly outside of the life that others were living.
I've tried to figure out my relationship with my mother by talking with others and have come to the conclusion that it's more like that with a distant aunt. She loves me and loves to hear from me, but she calls me maybe two or three times a year. This experience has deeply affected me, but it was not irrevocably destructive. It definitely has taught me how fragile and precious any relationship can be. I've grown accustomed to the fact my love for my family, friends, and significant others contains the seed of its inevitable loss.
I've tried to figure out my relationship with my mother by talking with others and have come to the conclusion that it's more like that with a distant aunt. She loves me and loves to hear from me, but she calls me maybe two or three times a year. This experience has deeply affected me, but it was not irrevocably destructive. It definitely has taught me how fragile and precious any relationship can be. I've grown accustomed to the fact my love for my family, friends, and significant others contains the seed of its inevitable loss.
ROzbeans
15 years ago
There are some women who feel no compunction about leaving their brood - that's their right, I guess. Then there are those that sacrifice everything for their kids. I've known women to divorce their kids and up and leave. Maybe they're missing something in their genetic makeup, maybe it stems from their own childhood, but personally I think if you choose to have children (and yes, it is a choice) then be a god damn mother.
pharren
15 years ago
And there are those that sacrifice everything for someone else's kids, even a complete stranger. I think that is part of our inherent programming as human beings, but again, maybe it's cultural and embedded so deeply that I'll never know (until someone with a clue comes along and tells me, or until I discover some lost tribe out in the middle of nowhere). I think that's why I was initially revolted by this story, but then intellect kicked in with "that's their right, I guess" in an attempt to look at things objectively.
I am glad you shared that, Wystro, as that seems to be a common theme among children in a household where one parent leaves, or even in divorces. I'm interested in why children take the "blame" themselves; in whether it's just because they are still essentially self-centered (I don't mean this in the negative way that it's used in everyday conversation) by virtue of still being a young child, or because they are reluctant or unable to attribute such a hurtful action to their parent(s) that they look up to and love so much, or something else entirely. Luckily, you are you, and were able to gain an important bit of insight from a bad situation; something I think some people unfortunately never learn. It may make every relationship somewhat bittersweet, but I think gives you a deeper appreciation for it, much like how people in their last years finally learn to cherish every day.
The more I read about psychology, the more I realize that most of our lives are spent either reenacting the traumatic events of our childhood - with us filling different roles in the little psychodrama, sometimes playing our parents, sometimes playing ourselves - or in trying to "correct" them by filling whatever void was left or attempting to nurture whatever part of us was neglected. This is a difficult thing for me to come to terms with, but it shows just how important our formative years are.
It makes me wonder if ANYONE is fit to be a parent... and perhaps counter-intuitively, this is somehow reassuring to me. In the book "The Drama of the Gifted Child" (which was originally called "Prisoners of Childhood", but I suppose that was too depressing), Alice Miller gives examples of how the smallest and most seemingly insignificant action or lack of action on the behalf of a parent can impact a child's personality for the rest of their lives. Yet people seem to come out okay in the end. So instead of despairing of ever being able to raise a child without permanently damaging their psyche, I guess we just do the best we can, as thousands of generations of parents have before us.
All that being said, I still don't trust myself to raise children :X
I'm inclined to agree, but then I start intellectualizing again and wondering if it's like the child who is "forced" into a profession from the very first, only to discover once they graduate and start working that they don't want to be a doctor/dentist/lawyer/whatever after all. Our culture (and perhaps genetics!) still sort of pushes women to play the role of June Cleaver, which really is a shame.
Then there are those that sacrifice everything for their kids.
And there are those that sacrifice everything for someone else's kids, even a complete stranger. I think that is part of our inherent programming as human beings, but again, maybe it's cultural and embedded so deeply that I'll never know (until someone with a clue comes along and tells me, or until I discover some lost tribe out in the middle of nowhere). I think that's why I was initially revolted by this story, but then intellect kicked in with "that's their right, I guess" in an attempt to look at things objectively.
I am glad you shared that, Wystro, as that seems to be a common theme among children in a household where one parent leaves, or even in divorces. I'm interested in why children take the "blame" themselves; in whether it's just because they are still essentially self-centered (I don't mean this in the negative way that it's used in everyday conversation) by virtue of still being a young child, or because they are reluctant or unable to attribute such a hurtful action to their parent(s) that they look up to and love so much, or something else entirely. Luckily, you are you, and were able to gain an important bit of insight from a bad situation; something I think some people unfortunately never learn. It may make every relationship somewhat bittersweet, but I think gives you a deeper appreciation for it, much like how people in their last years finally learn to cherish every day.
Maybe they're missing something in their genetic makeup, maybe it stems from their own childhood
The more I read about psychology, the more I realize that most of our lives are spent either reenacting the traumatic events of our childhood - with us filling different roles in the little psychodrama, sometimes playing our parents, sometimes playing ourselves - or in trying to "correct" them by filling whatever void was left or attempting to nurture whatever part of us was neglected. This is a difficult thing for me to come to terms with, but it shows just how important our formative years are.
It makes me wonder if ANYONE is fit to be a parent... and perhaps counter-intuitively, this is somehow reassuring to me. In the book "The Drama of the Gifted Child" (which was originally called "Prisoners of Childhood", but I suppose that was too depressing), Alice Miller gives examples of how the smallest and most seemingly insignificant action or lack of action on the behalf of a parent can impact a child's personality for the rest of their lives. Yet people seem to come out okay in the end. So instead of despairing of ever being able to raise a child without permanently damaging their psyche, I guess we just do the best we can, as thousands of generations of parents have before us.
All that being said, I still don't trust myself to raise children :X
personally I think if you choose to have children (and yes, it is a choice) then be a god damn mother.
I'm inclined to agree, but then I start intellectualizing again and wondering if it's like the child who is "forced" into a profession from the very first, only to discover once they graduate and start working that they don't want to be a doctor/dentist/lawyer/whatever after all. Our culture (and perhaps genetics!) still sort of pushes women to play the role of June Cleaver, which really is a shame.
Wystro
15 years ago
Parents will make mistakes if they love their job enough. If we really care about raising our children, we'll try to be everything that our children deserve; and the boundary of our capacity is where we fail. I have more respect for someone who gives everything they know how and falls somewhat short of perfection than for someone distant and pleasant.
To answer Pharren's question about why children seem to "blame" themselves, I can only speak from my own experience. I didn't come into this world with a comparable reference with which to measure my own experience. Everything I experienced was my normal. Children are naturally self-centered because they are absorbing an incredible amount of information, language, culture, and basic skills at a rapid pace. Only when development slows down later in life are we better able to abstract the deeper concepts at play from the actual events. I was about twenty-five when I disengaged from the "self-evident" values and lessons of my childhood.
To answer Pharren's question about why children seem to "blame" themselves, I can only speak from my own experience. I didn't come into this world with a comparable reference with which to measure my own experience. Everything I experienced was my normal. Children are naturally self-centered because they are absorbing an incredible amount of information, language, culture, and basic skills at a rapid pace. Only when development slows down later in life are we better able to abstract the deeper concepts at play from the actual events. I was about twenty-five when I disengaged from the "self-evident" values and lessons of my childhood.
pharren
15 years ago
Interesting! I hadn't considered that, I'd just attributed it to a general lack of experience. That is definitely food for thought.
Children are naturally self-centered because they are absorbing an incredible amount of information, language, culture, and basic skills at a rapid pace. Only when development slows down later in life are we better able to abstract the deeper concepts at play from the actual events.
Interesting! I hadn't considered that, I'd just attributed it to a general lack of experience. That is definitely food for thought.
Lessa
15 years ago
One of my sisters in law was dropped off at her aunt's when she was about 8 years old, for her aunt to adopt.. by her mother.. who then went on to remarry and have more children who she kept as well as having an older son. That sister in law then divorced her husband when her son was about 9 or 10, giving up all custody rights in exchange for not having to pay child support when my brother in law came out to Missouri.
So yeah, it happens, there are moms who do not have that drive to be there, but I think part of that c ould be her own experiences.. not that that justifies it.. I think its horrible. If you give life to someone, you should do everything in your power to make that life a happy and healthy one.
So yeah, it happens, there are moms who do not have that drive to be there, but I think part of that c ould be her own experiences.. not that that justifies it.. I think its horrible. If you give life to someone, you should do everything in your power to make that life a happy and healthy one.
Dia
15 years ago
Children are egocentric , not because they are taught to be it's just a development process. The brain can't conceptualize abstract thinking beyond themselves at those ages. Just like babies can't conceptualize color when they are born and follow black and white patterns. They aren't really color blind they just aren't at the stage yet.
We live in a patriarachial society and most of the world is that way and that leads to the assumption that it's more of a norm that the females don't leave children. For sure youre right Pharren when you say society creates whats more tolerable because cultures create their own norms. There are some matriarachial groups out there tho. I've never read much about them and we really don't study them in school. I stay away from the women gender study classes. I stick mostly with crime and deviance.
I don't think it's often women are forced into having children (sure sure theres some instances out there but they are not US norms) even if a person doesn't believe in terminating a pregnancy there's other options. But i've been trying to think of an abstract example for you that doesn't deal with you having to put yourself in the place of a parent. here goes -> Say your a mad scientist and you've created an army of robots. You've released them into the general public for a few years made sure that they've assimilated themselves and then suddenly you decide you changed your mind? "Nah i dont want to be a mad scientist anymore." Can you at this point really just close up shop and go home and start over as a pet detective? What about all those robots you made? Shouldn't you be at least responsible for them? They didn't make themselves did they? Who's going to oil them? What happens if it rains and you hadn't thought to equip them with silicone rain resistant skin? Are you gonna just leave them out their for the rest of society to deal with? What if they start to fall apart who will fix them? Man I hope you had a mad scientist assistant who feels responsible enough to clean up after your robots.
That may have been a crap example but I couldnt think of anything other than if your cat has kittens do you just open the front door and let roam the neighborhood to poop in peoples yards and eat trash?
We live in a patriarachial society and most of the world is that way and that leads to the assumption that it's more of a norm that the females don't leave children. For sure youre right Pharren when you say society creates whats more tolerable because cultures create their own norms. There are some matriarachial groups out there tho. I've never read much about them and we really don't study them in school. I stay away from the women gender study classes. I stick mostly with crime and deviance.
I'm inclined to agree, but then I start intellectualizing again and wondering if it's like the child who is "forced" into a profession from the very first, only to discover once they graduate and start working that they don't want to be a doctor/dentist/lawyer/whatever after all. Our culture (and perhaps genetics!) still sort of pushes women to play the role of June Cleaver, which really is a shame.
I don't think it's often women are forced into having children (sure sure theres some instances out there but they are not US norms) even if a person doesn't believe in terminating a pregnancy there's other options. But i've been trying to think of an abstract example for you that doesn't deal with you having to put yourself in the place of a parent. here goes -> Say your a mad scientist and you've created an army of robots. You've released them into the general public for a few years made sure that they've assimilated themselves and then suddenly you decide you changed your mind? "Nah i dont want to be a mad scientist anymore." Can you at this point really just close up shop and go home and start over as a pet detective? What about all those robots you made? Shouldn't you be at least responsible for them? They didn't make themselves did they? Who's going to oil them? What happens if it rains and you hadn't thought to equip them with silicone rain resistant skin? Are you gonna just leave them out their for the rest of society to deal with? What if they start to fall apart who will fix them? Man I hope you had a mad scientist assistant who feels responsible enough to clean up after your robots.
That may have been a crap example but I couldnt think of anything other than if your cat has kittens do you just open the front door and let roam the neighborhood to poop in peoples yards and eat trash?
pharren
15 years ago
lol, that is a DAMN good example.
I didn't mean that women are literally forced into having kids, just that our culture attempts to brainwash us (not intentionally or with malice, it's just a self-perpetuating thing). Little girls play with dolls (mothering), little boys play with guns and play organized sports (soldiering; now mostly deprecated, but the tribe needs warriors). Then we read them fairy tales... ugh, don't let me get started on the fairy tales.
I didn't mean to imply that I thought it was an acceptable excuse, just that when I react to something automatically or instinctively, I feel that I must question its validity and examine alternatives.
I didn't mean that women are literally forced into having kids, just that our culture attempts to brainwash us (not intentionally or with malice, it's just a self-perpetuating thing). Little girls play with dolls (mothering), little boys play with guns and play organized sports (soldiering; now mostly deprecated, but the tribe needs warriors). Then we read them fairy tales... ugh, don't let me get started on the fairy tales.
I didn't mean to imply that I thought it was an acceptable excuse, just that when I react to something automatically or instinctively, I feel that I must question its validity and examine alternatives.
Verileah
15 years ago
I love that example Dia :D.
Verileah
15 years ago
I think there have to be hormones involved - just talking about this gets me all irrational and teary-eyed (nooo ickle wystro! *squish*). Poor kids :(.
Also I think my urge to smack this woman comes in part from finding the idea of writing a book about 'finding yourself' or whatever at the expense of your kids to be in extremely poor taste. I doubt that book is going to be any comfort to those children.
And furthermore, did anyone else see the dollar signs in that therapist's eyes when she was all 'la, perhaps her children have been damaged, but THERAPY will fix all of that!'?
Also I think my urge to smack this woman comes in part from finding the idea of writing a book about 'finding yourself' or whatever at the expense of your kids to be in extremely poor taste. I doubt that book is going to be any comfort to those children.
And furthermore, did anyone else see the dollar signs in that therapist's eyes when she was all 'la, perhaps her children have been damaged, but THERAPY will fix all of that!'?
Dia
15 years ago
=D
Society is all kinds of crazy. Theres the whole nuture vs nature thing and theres all sorts of proof and disproof on both sides. I'm kinda kitchen sinky and think most things in life have more than one absolute. I dunno if that makes me a lazy sociologist or what. Prolly
Good point Verileah about the moms book. Thats what makes it extra horrible to me.!
Society is all kinds of crazy. Theres the whole nuture vs nature thing and theres all sorts of proof and disproof on both sides. I'm kinda kitchen sinky and think most things in life have more than one absolute. I dunno if that makes me a lazy sociologist or what. Prolly
Good point Verileah about the moms book. Thats what makes it extra horrible to me.!
pharren
15 years ago
No, it just means you are observant.
I think the book sounds interesting :X Check out the description and reviews on Amazon.
I'm kinda kitchen sinky and think most things in life have more than one absolute. I dunno if that makes me a lazy sociologist or what.
No, it just means you are observant.
I think the book sounds interesting :X Check out the description and reviews on Amazon.
Wystro
15 years ago
Panic is over! I finally have a day job, and I won't be homeless! Woooohooooo! Now that I'm safe and sane, it's back to my commissions =)
Gongaa
15 years ago
Congratulations! I bet that's a huge relief.
Wystro;104959
Panic is over! I finally have a day job, and I won't be homeless! Woooohooooo! Now that I'm safe and sane, it's back to my commissions =)
Congratulations! I bet that's a huge relief.
Eve
15 years ago
Yay! Which one did you get hon?
Wystro
15 years ago
It was the hotel position. The other one couldn't offer me a job before I got the official offer. In a way I'm sad, but the job that I accepted does pay better.
Eve
15 years ago
Ahh well, just be glad one panned out ;) At least it does pay more, so that makes up for it a bit I would hope.
pharren
15 years ago
My ultra-conservative Christian cousin thinks that this earthquake in Japan signifies the beginning of armageddon, but he still doesn't "believe" in "global warming". I.... I.... I'm.... :?