The account of Abraham you're talking about was when God used Abraham to request freedom for the Jews from captivity in Egypt. When Abraham raised his hands to part the Red Sea, he wasn't dropping a bomb on millions of unsuspecting people. He was "letting his people go". It was the Egyptians CHOICE to follow through the Red Sea and perish. It was the choice of the Pharoah, whom I'm sure all the Egyptians thought was doing what was best for his people. Hell, Ramses was a God on his own by their point of view.
What I'm saying here is no, there is no account in the bible where God says it's ok to be walked all over. However, this war, as have been most wars in recent history, was started and is continuing for QUESTIONABLE reasons. When I ask how do you know if our current government is beyond reproach, what I mean is how do YOU know if they're making the right choices. Only history can tell us that. Many American's feel that Bush is NOT making the right choices for our country. Many feel that inspite of his making labels of who is evil and who is not that he is actually a bloodthirsty oil digger out to fill his pockets with money. I am not arguing whether or not this is true...I am of the opinion that this is true of most politicians, but that is not the argument here. I am pointing out that he is making decisions for this country...our whole government is...and using God as their backer...It's ok for them to do whatever it is they want to do because we're durn it we're American, and God's on OUR side! And in 10 years we'll find out whether or not his decisions were right ones but if they're not...what does that say about God? What if we come to find out that there WAS some hidden agenda and our government is currently running under the influence of a bloodthirsty selfish man? Well...I guess God works in mysterious ways? And beyond that, what if the Christian faith is the WRONG one? What if the Wiccan's have it right? Or the Buddhists? Who the hell was running the show then if we Christians were all wrong? Could it be...Satan?
Don't get me wrong Nalla, I do believe in God, and I am a Christian. But I also am human...and we are sinful and often WRONG. Which is why attaching God's motives, which are (by the Christian viewpoint) sinless and RIGHTEOUS, to human actions and decisions (which we've already established are often wrong) is...well it's blasphemy actually. Honestly, if I thought for a moment that God was behind any activities of any governmental system on earth on a whole, rather then being behind our activities personally and individually...I'd become an aethiest.
(Betcha all didn't know I was such a bible thumper eh? My parents would be so proud! But wow talk about 360 in terms of conversation!)
What to tell your kids?
Ok, so my 5 year old has been asking about death lately. Asking if our dog, 15 years old, is going to die soon. Wanted to know if I was going to die. Wanted to know what happens after you die and why.
/sigh.
I'd honestly rather give him 'the talk', than talk about death with him.
I'm wiccan, so my beleif of the afterlife differs than that of my ex, hell, it differs than that of my whole family. I don't want to totally ignore my beleifs, nor do I want to ignore my families beleifs. So, I gave him all the different theories on it. Let him know some people think you'll go to heaven, some think you'll get reincarnated (try explaining reincarnation to a 5 year old), some think you'll become a spirit that stays on earth, and so on.
When he asked if our dog or myself would die, I told him everyone does. /sigh. Was that wrong of me to say? The way I worded it was, "Everyone dies, it's a part of life, just like being born and growing up is. Don't think of the dying part, that might make ya too sad, instead think of the now part."
He asked if we can see people once they're dead. I told him, in our dreams we can.
ugh.
I don't want to scar the poor boy. I hardly thought my 5 year old would be asking about death, and he totally caught me off gaurd.
So, I come to you now, what would you tell your child(ren)?
Gilae
21 years ago
Guest
21 years ago
No, I may have the wrong man then, cause thats not what I was talking about. This was a war. When his hand came down, his people were destroyed by their captors, but when his hand was raised, they began to win again. Ill look it up. I just cant remember. Ill get back to ya on that one :)
Aziyade
21 years ago
Gilae, Moses parted the Red Sea, not Abraham. Abraham was the first Hebrew. It was he who made the covenant with God. The covenant being that the Hebrews would follow no God but He and that they would show their devotion by circumcising their males.
I am unfamiliar with the story Nalla is referring to but she's piqued my curiosity so I may just have to go looking for it. ;)
I am unfamiliar with the story Nalla is referring to but she's piqued my curiosity so I may just have to go looking for it. ;)
Vulash
21 years ago
The old testament and all stories of war weren't even letters to churches. It was simply oral tradition passed down through many generations until it was eventually penned hundreds of years later.
The new testament speaks plainly not to fight, but to turn the other cheek (and not just this one time as the cliche). I cannot recall a single verse in the New Testament even about defense other then yielding to your enemy nothing but love no matter what he does to you.
According to the New Testament all laws and traditions in the old testament were redone upon Jesus's birth. That inclues the 10 commandments, and Jesus gave us new laws to follow, and well changed everything pretty much.
I probably won't go much deeper into the conversation then this to be honest.
The new testament speaks plainly not to fight, but to turn the other cheek (and not just this one time as the cliche). I cannot recall a single verse in the New Testament even about defense other then yielding to your enemy nothing but love no matter what he does to you.
According to the New Testament all laws and traditions in the old testament were redone upon Jesus's birth. That inclues the 10 commandments, and Jesus gave us new laws to follow, and well changed everything pretty much.
I probably won't go much deeper into the conversation then this to be honest.
Gilae
21 years ago
Oops I'm blushing now...you're right :/
Aziyade
Gilae, Moses parted the Red Sea, not Abraham. Abraham was the first Hebrew. It was he who made the covenant with God. The covenant being that the Hebrews would follow no God but He and that they would show their devotion by circumcising their males.
I am unfamiliar with the story Nalla is referring to but she's piqued my curiosity so I may just have to go looking for it. ;)
Oops I'm blushing now...you're right :/
Gilae
21 years ago
Hey Tim, what're you doing this weekend? It's my birthday!
Vulash
The old testament and all stories of war weren't even letters to churches. It was simply oral tradition passed down through many generations until it was eventually penned hundreds of years later.
The new testament speaks plainly not to fight, but to turn the other cheek (and not just this one time as the cliche). I cannot recall a single verse in the New Testament even about defense other then yielding to your enemy nothing but love no matter what he does to you.
According to the New Testament all laws and traditions in the old testament were redone upon Jesus's birth. That inclues the 10 commandments, and Jesus gave us new laws to follow, and well changed everything pretty much.
I probably won't go much deeper into the conversation then this to be honest.
Hey Tim, what're you doing this weekend? It's my birthday!
ssoulz
21 years ago
<--- circumcised... sup?
and i'm not even hebrew wtf.
The covenant being that the Hebrews would follow no God but He and that they would show their devotion by circumcising their males.
<--- circumcised... sup?
and i'm not even hebrew wtf.
Anulien
21 years ago
I do not see anything blashphemous about putting God's name on currency. Using the money is the root of all evil argument is BS since money doesn't make people sin. Lack of self control and immoral decisions is the evil that makes money seem bad. In fact there are a large number of Psalms that offer great advice about money and credit.
I don't buy into anyone's justifications for armed forces present day anymore. Especially American's who argue the loudest for freedom of blahblahblah when only a few years ago we had the largest invasions on privacy and free thinking in the forms of the Patriot Act and the DMCA. Americans stood silent as freedoms were blatantly stripped from them in the name of security, only to turn around and tell others about how great American Democracy is. Lets take over Iran quickly and force our form of gov't on them too!
And I thought they were the words of God carved into stone to give people laws in which to live their lives by. Not given to any religious group. However Abram was present during this time and he did become Abraham the father of Judaism soon after. Judaism is also the oldest of the monotheistic religions.
Vulash is absolutely correct in the seperation of the Old and New Testaments. God the Father was absolutely unforgiving. Flood, plagues, fire and brimstone trigger any memories? However God was born on earth as the Son to create a way that people would not be absolutely damned. The theological idea being when we are judged at the lake of fire the Father will still condemn us for our life of sin but the Son will vouch for us based on the good of our lives. Jesus did not give any new laws to follow, the 10 commandments are absolute. But he provided morally correct ways to live life. And that also included the removal of the eye for an eye ideals.
The story Nalla is reffering to is Exodus 17. Amalek brought his armies to subdue the Israelites while they were still traveling to the promised land. When Moses prayed and held his hands in the air the Israelite would win. So they sat him on a rock and Aaron and Hur held his arms up.
Aziyade
I don't believe that God should be on money, period. I think it's blasphemous.
I do not see anything blashphemous about putting God's name on currency. Using the money is the root of all evil argument is BS since money doesn't make people sin. Lack of self control and immoral decisions is the evil that makes money seem bad. In fact there are a large number of Psalms that offer great advice about money and credit.
Larene
Thats why our men and women are in uniform to ensure that right
I don't buy into anyone's justifications for armed forces present day anymore. Especially American's who argue the loudest for freedom of blahblahblah when only a few years ago we had the largest invasions on privacy and free thinking in the forms of the Patriot Act and the DMCA. Americans stood silent as freedoms were blatantly stripped from them in the name of security, only to turn around and tell others about how great American Democracy is. Lets take over Iran quickly and force our form of gov't on them too!
Aziyade
I would just like to point out the the 10 Commandments were originally Jewish.
And I thought they were the words of God carved into stone to give people laws in which to live their lives by. Not given to any religious group. However Abram was present during this time and he did become Abraham the father of Judaism soon after. Judaism is also the oldest of the monotheistic religions.
Vulash
Stuff
Vulash is absolutely correct in the seperation of the Old and New Testaments. God the Father was absolutely unforgiving. Flood, plagues, fire and brimstone trigger any memories? However God was born on earth as the Son to create a way that people would not be absolutely damned. The theological idea being when we are judged at the lake of fire the Father will still condemn us for our life of sin but the Son will vouch for us based on the good of our lives. Jesus did not give any new laws to follow, the 10 commandments are absolute. But he provided morally correct ways to live life. And that also included the removal of the eye for an eye ideals.
The story Nalla is reffering to is Exodus 17. Amalek brought his armies to subdue the Israelites while they were still traveling to the promised land. When Moses prayed and held his hands in the air the Israelite would win. So they sat him on a rock and Aaron and Hur held his arms up.
ssoulz
21 years ago
The discussion of religion is hopeless. People who 'believe' can never be swayed because they just make up whatever answers they need for themselves to continue believing.
Christians portray God as all powerful and all knowing... if this were the case... why were Adam and Eve even put in a situation to be tempted by the serpent? Why did God wait so long to give the 10 commandments? Why did God wait so long to give us "Jesus" to deliver us salvation?
How can man be made perfect in God's image yet we are so flawed we even needed the 10 commandments or Jesus to bring us salvation.
God should have known all this no?
More than anything it sounds like some frankenstein novel except Dr. Frankenstein is telling his creation that he is the one and only God and we are to worship him.
So mankind now has the ability to clone and even influence the genes that determine what a person will look like, act like etc... so does this mean we are God also and now there is going to be a 3rd testament?
Christians portray God as all powerful and all knowing... if this were the case... why were Adam and Eve even put in a situation to be tempted by the serpent? Why did God wait so long to give the 10 commandments? Why did God wait so long to give us "Jesus" to deliver us salvation?
How can man be made perfect in God's image yet we are so flawed we even needed the 10 commandments or Jesus to bring us salvation.
God should have known all this no?
More than anything it sounds like some frankenstein novel except Dr. Frankenstein is telling his creation that he is the one and only God and we are to worship him.
So mankind now has the ability to clone and even influence the genes that determine what a person will look like, act like etc... so does this mean we are God also and now there is going to be a 3rd testament?
Anulien
21 years ago
Free will.
Funny that people don't realize that man has not created a single thing in all time except for new life which is a gift all living things have. How can man be a god of anything when we cannot even create? How can you measure genetic research with omipetent power when you youself chose to use the word influence when describing our ability to interact with genetics. If a computer can scan the Mona Lisa and clone it on a printer does that computer become Da Vinci?
ssoulz
How can man be made perfect in God's image yet we are so flawed we even needed the 10 commandments or Jesus to bring us salvation.
Free will.
ssoulz
So mankind now has the ability to clone and even influence the genes that determine what a person will look like, act like etc... so does this mean we are God also and now there is going to be a 3rd testament?
Funny that people don't realize that man has not created a single thing in all time except for new life which is a gift all living things have. How can man be a god of anything when we cannot even create? How can you measure genetic research with omipetent power when you youself chose to use the word influence when describing our ability to interact with genetics. If a computer can scan the Mona Lisa and clone it on a printer does that computer become Da Vinci?
Anulien
21 years ago
going back to the original discussion.
A safe thing to do if you aren't certain in your belief.
I would tell them exactly my ideals without sugar coating. If my 5 year old couldn't handle that then I think I did something wrong in years 0-4. If you can explain yourself completely and thoroughly there is nothing kids don't understand as well as adults.
immy
I'm wiccan, so my beleif of the afterlife differs than that of my ex, hell, it differs than that of my whole family. I don't want to totally ignore my beleifs, nor do I want to ignore my families beleifs. So, I gave him all the different theories on it.
A safe thing to do if you aren't certain in your belief.
immy
So, I come to you now, what would you tell your child(ren)?
I would tell them exactly my ideals without sugar coating. If my 5 year old couldn't handle that then I think I did something wrong in years 0-4. If you can explain yourself completely and thoroughly there is nothing kids don't understand as well as adults.
ssoulz
21 years ago
thus is why the discussion is pointless.
the typical answer. I ask again, if God is all knowing and all powerful, why could he not foresee the outcome?
i know i know... free will... this explains it all. except that you are admitting your God isn't all powerful OR your God has a terribly mean spirit.
BTW... what proof is there that God created ANYTHING? There is none. Did we not create computers or artificial intelligence, robots? How about buildings. Even God used existing materials to make man... mud...
ssoulz wrote:
How can man be made perfect in God's image yet we are so flawed we even needed the 10 commandments or Jesus to bring us salvation.
Free will.
the typical answer. I ask again, if God is all knowing and all powerful, why could he not foresee the outcome?
i know i know... free will... this explains it all. except that you are admitting your God isn't all powerful OR your God has a terribly mean spirit.
ssoulz wrote:
So mankind now has the ability to clone and even influence the genes that determine what a person will look like, act like etc... so does this mean we are God also and now there is going to be a 3rd testament?
Funny that people don't realize that man has not created a single thing in all time except for new life which is a gift all living things have. How can man be a god of anything when we cannot even create? How can you measure genetic research with omipetent power when you youself chose to use the word influence when describing our ability to interact with genetics. If a computer can scan the Mona Lisa and clone it on a printer does that computer become Da Vinci?
BTW... what proof is there that God created ANYTHING? There is none. Did we not create computers or artificial intelligence, robots? How about buildings. Even God used existing materials to make man... mud...
ssoulz
21 years ago
well actually... immy stated that their afterlife would be different.. as in there is more than one possible afterlife.
that has nothing to do with not being certain. it's like a fork in the road, both going to equal but different destinations.
There are tons of things children don't understand as well as adults. The concepts of religion, racism, etc... isn't something you can just completely and thoroughly explain. If it were the case, there wouldn't be on going discussions to this day by adults.
immy wrote:
I'm wiccan, so my beleif of the afterlife differs than that of my ex, hell, it differs than that of my whole family. I don't want to totally ignore my beleifs, nor do I want to ignore my families beleifs. So, I gave him all the different theories on it.
A safe thing to do if you aren't certain in your belief.
well actually... immy stated that their afterlife would be different.. as in there is more than one possible afterlife.
that has nothing to do with not being certain. it's like a fork in the road, both going to equal but different destinations.
immy wrote:
So, I come to you now, what would you tell your child(ren)?
I would tell them exactly my ideals without sugar coating. If my 5 year old couldn't handle that then I think I did something wrong in years 0-4. If you can explain yourself completely and thoroughly there is nothing kids don't understand as well as adults.
There are tons of things children don't understand as well as adults. The concepts of religion, racism, etc... isn't something you can just completely and thoroughly explain. If it were the case, there wouldn't be on going discussions to this day by adults.
Anulien
21 years ago
Then why continue to contribute?
How have I admitted God is not all knowing or all powerful? You are putting words in my mouth and make amazingly huge assumptions. The power to know all, see all and be part of everything has nothing to do with allowing individuals to a) accept or reject the idea of a creator b) accept or reject any god and c) make moral decisions at all times. With that said I fail to see how your summary of free will would invalidate any absolute power.
We have invented computers, we have invented machines, we have invented robots, we still have not invented artificial intelligence. We are creatures of invention, able to reuse existing resources. What have we created other than life which all living things can?
ssoulz
thus is why the discussion is pointless.
Then why continue to contribute?
ssoulz wrote:
the typical answer. I ask again, if God is all knowing and all powerful, why could he not foresee the outcome?
i know i know... free will... this explains it all. except that you are admitting your God isn't all powerful OR your God has a terribly mean spirit.
How have I admitted God is not all knowing or all powerful? You are putting words in my mouth and make amazingly huge assumptions. The power to know all, see all and be part of everything has nothing to do with allowing individuals to a) accept or reject the idea of a creator b) accept or reject any god and c) make moral decisions at all times. With that said I fail to see how your summary of free will would invalidate any absolute power.
ssoulz
BTW... what proof is there that God created ANYTHING? There is none. Did we not create computers or artificial intelligence, robots? How about buildings. Even God used existing materials to make man... mud...
We have invented computers, we have invented machines, we have invented robots, we still have not invented artificial intelligence. We are creatures of invention, able to reuse existing resources. What have we created other than life which all living things can?
Anulien
21 years ago
The concept of absolutely anything is easy to explain. The things you do not understand you will never be able to explain. Everyone does not understand religion or racism which case in point is why they are discussed to this day by adults.
ssoulz
There are tons of things children don't understand as well as adults. The concepts of religion, racism, etc... isn't something you can just completely and thoroughly explain. If it were the case, there wouldn't be on going discussions to this day by adults.
The concept of absolutely anything is easy to explain. The things you do not understand you will never be able to explain. Everyone does not understand religion or racism which case in point is why they are discussed to this day by adults.
ssoulz
21 years ago
what has God created other than life... which all living things can? and where is there proof that God created anything at all?
We have invented computers, we have invented machines, we have invented robots, we still have not invented artificial intelligence. We are creatures of invention, able to reuse existing resources. What have we created other than life which all living things can?
what has God created other than life... which all living things can? and where is there proof that God created anything at all?
Gilae
21 years ago
The point is they can understand the concept. A child sees things die every day - plants, pets, bugs. They understand the concept. If you further explain to them the concept of religion and faith...even racism...they'll get that too. People who overprotect their children from basic truths as we understand them of life the universe and everything are doing them a disservice imo. Children despise being talked down to or treated as if they can't understand. Often they have a clearer picture of the way things should be then we do even if they aren't always certain of the way things are. It's a matter of educating them and not underestimating them.
This is actually a sore point with me...it drives me nuts when I see kids at 3 years old whose parents havent attempted to teach them their alphabet yet or how to properly form words even. Many children can read by the age of 3...by 5 I was reading the newspaper...not because I was/am particularly gifted or intelligent. But because my mother took the time to teach me. I could READ about religion, racism and politics...and when I didn't understand what I was reading, I asked. This is why children ask so many questions...they want answers...true answers. And we have a responsibility to them to answer them as best as we know how...and admit to them when we don't know all the answers.
Ssoulz
.There are tons of things children don't understand as well as adults. The concepts of religion, racism, etc... isn't something you can just completely and thoroughly explain. If it were the case, there wouldn't be on going discussions to this day by adults
The point is they can understand the concept. A child sees things die every day - plants, pets, bugs. They understand the concept. If you further explain to them the concept of religion and faith...even racism...they'll get that too. People who overprotect their children from basic truths as we understand them of life the universe and everything are doing them a disservice imo. Children despise being talked down to or treated as if they can't understand. Often they have a clearer picture of the way things should be then we do even if they aren't always certain of the way things are. It's a matter of educating them and not underestimating them.
This is actually a sore point with me...it drives me nuts when I see kids at 3 years old whose parents havent attempted to teach them their alphabet yet or how to properly form words even. Many children can read by the age of 3...by 5 I was reading the newspaper...not because I was/am particularly gifted or intelligent. But because my mother took the time to teach me. I could READ about religion, racism and politics...and when I didn't understand what I was reading, I asked. This is why children ask so many questions...they want answers...true answers. And we have a responsibility to them to answer them as best as we know how...and admit to them when we don't know all the answers.
Gilae
21 years ago
Man, you don't want much for a nickel do ya?
ssoulz
We have invented computers, we have invented machines, we have invented robots, we still have not invented artificial intelligence. We are creatures of invention, able to reuse existing resources. What have we created other than life which all living things can?
what has God created other than life... which all living things can? and where is there proof that God created anything at all?
Man, you don't want much for a nickel do ya?
Anulien
21 years ago
Why are you still part of the discussion ssoulz? you've already opted out with your this is pointless because it can't be proven statements. Which will forever be your retreat. Your comment on artificial intelligence made me laugh a little, saying we have invented something we have not tells me we you have no understanding of the examples you are trying to use for creation. We have only ideas of what artifical intelligence would be which are nothing but reflections of our own physio-social behaviours.
But to answer your question we will just start with the simplest of things, mass from nothing or what is known as absolute creation. And then from that matter, the governing system, and laws of regulation of said system. A system so complex, complete and perfect we have science just to try and gain an understanding of it.
And before you play your but where is the proof of that game again, this is where my free will comes to play. I have the free will to either accept God's word as truth or not to and find some other truth. But I have picked some side where as you have not. If you are seeking proof of existence and creation you are never going to find it on this planet as no religion or area of science offers the absoluteness of proof; the biggest hurdle of any faith.
ssoulz
We have invented computers, we have invented machines, we have invented robots, we still have not invented artificial intelligence. We are creatures of invention, able to reuse existing resources. What have we created other than life which all living things can?
what has God created other than life... which all living things can? and where is there proof that God created anything at all?
Why are you still part of the discussion ssoulz? you've already opted out with your this is pointless because it can't be proven statements. Which will forever be your retreat. Your comment on artificial intelligence made me laugh a little, saying we have invented something we have not tells me we you have no understanding of the examples you are trying to use for creation. We have only ideas of what artifical intelligence would be which are nothing but reflections of our own physio-social behaviours.
But to answer your question we will just start with the simplest of things, mass from nothing or what is known as absolute creation. And then from that matter, the governing system, and laws of regulation of said system. A system so complex, complete and perfect we have science just to try and gain an understanding of it.
And before you play your but where is the proof of that game again, this is where my free will comes to play. I have the free will to either accept God's word as truth or not to and find some other truth. But I have picked some side where as you have not. If you are seeking proof of existence and creation you are never going to find it on this planet as no religion or area of science offers the absoluteness of proof; the biggest hurdle of any faith.
ssoulz
21 years ago
artificial intelligence has been created but that is ofcourse another discussion. even if neither of us could prove whether artificial intelligence is real or not... i could just use your argument of faith and say that it has because i believe it.
faith isn't anything but you accepting you don't know the answer and it prohibits you from further seeking truths.
it's sad really.
Your comment on artificial intelligence made me laugh a little, saying we have invented something we have not tells me we you have no understanding of the examples you are trying to use for creation.
artificial intelligence has been created but that is ofcourse another discussion. even if neither of us could prove whether artificial intelligence is real or not... i could just use your argument of faith and say that it has because i believe it.
faith isn't anything but you accepting you don't know the answer and it prohibits you from further seeking truths.
it's sad really.